TOMS mini starter hanging up

[DirtDonk]

Hmm, not common at all if wired properly. I wonder if there is something else at work here.
Did your starter have the jumper piece (wire OR flat metal link) between the large and small contacts on the starter?

Is this a new install and it's always done it? Or did it work fine at one time, then just started hanging up on it's own?

Paul

 

[Teal68]

Hey Paul,
I'm working with an existing vehicle that already had a mini starter. It has done this since day one which has only been a couple weeks. There is an extra wire about 4" long coming off the smaller stud but it's capped and dangling. If it was hooked to the larger stud wouldn't that trigger the solenoid to start turning the starter (all the time)?

I also wonder if maybe the starter is too deep and needs shimmed out, but I'm not sure that would cause a problem.
Thanks,
Tyler

 

[DirtDonk]

There is an extra wire about 4" long coming off the smaller stud but it's capped and dangling. If it was hooked to the larger stud wouldn't that trigger the solenoid to start turning the starter (all the time)?

Yes. Anything that jumpers between the two studs can keep the starter engaged and spinning as long as it's powered up.
This would work fine in theory, but since the motor itself can act as a generator under the right circumstances, any conductor permanently connected between the two will allow that feedback to keep things running even with the key off.
If the starter motor was better at being a generator, it would stay on all the time. As it is, it does eventually die down. Usually after only 2-5 seconds or so.
How long does yours stay engaged?

I also wonder if maybe the starter is too deep and needs shimmed out, but I'm not sure that would cause a problem.

Physical fit issues can indeed cause a starter to "hang" but only physically. Not usually able to keep the starter motor spinning.
If your starter sounds like it's energized and electrically spinning, then the physical misalignment won't normally cause that. At least not without a jumper in place.
It would only cause the engine to spin the starter. Not the other way around.
If a jumper is present, then things could get interesting

So you're sure that wire is hanging it sounds like. And you can't see a jumper plate hidden in there between the two? There will always be a physical connection of some kind between the solenoid and the motor, but there should be nothing between the large stud on the solenoid and the small one on the solenoid.

Paul

 

[Teal68]

I misunderstood your original comment about the jumper wire. Check out these photos and see what you think. Oh, BTW, it's on the same Mustang that is giving me fits with the gauges you have been helping me on! I figure it applies to Broncos too though.

 

[DirtDonk]

Well a couple of things come to mind.
One is that it looks to be wired correctly at the starter. But two, it looks like you're just a start or three away from a full run-on of the starter!
More on that in a minute...

Can you post up a pic of your starter relay on the fender? Just want to see what's up there as well.

Regarding your starter, I would disconnect the battery, yank that main starter cable from it's current position and re-orient it, ore replace it's end with a 90° type.
The reason being, even if it might have more clearance than we can see in the pic, it looks like it's literally touching the starter motor's stud. I know it can't be, or it would be spinning the moment you connect the battery. It's just too hard to tell from this angle, but I would change it anyway.

Looks like you have plenty of cable to at the very least loosen the nut and rotate the cable upwards away from the starter motor.
I can see that you're trying to keep it away from the heat of the headers, and you don't want it actually rubbing the engine of course, but there is I'm sure a happy middle ground in there.

On a side note, I like to use the proper sized shrink tubing on the semi-exposed ends of these particular style cables. For your garden variety store bought cable, they're actually very good at what they do. But sealing the exposed strands where the outer jacket almost meets the edge of the connector is just going to give it a longer life before it gives you any grief.
I do it at the starter relay ends too, but especially down at the starter. That's an unfriendly environment even on a show car. Drive it and that poor cable sees a lot of grief.
If you ever have it off again, slide some shrink tubing over the end to seal that joint.

And if you do have it off for any reason, remove that loose jumper wire too. No reason to keep it in harm's way. And to just give the whole thing that cleaner look I'm sure you'd like with the Mustang.

But no matter what you do, rotate that cable up and more out of the way.
Sorry I'm not sure why yours is experiencing run-on. Maybe a pic of the relay will highlight something.

Paul

 

[Teal68]

Paul,
I pulled the starter last night just to check it out the teeth and bench test it. All checked out so I re-install and have the same problem of course. I did orient the big wire different this time too. Good eye!

I may have found a problem thanks to you asking for a pic of the solenoid. The starter is wired correctly, but the alternator has it's big wire going to the same side of the solenoid as the trigger wire for the starter. I'm thinking some kind of back feed is the problem. I don't even see how the alternator could be charging correctly hooked to that post???? Is that wrong? It's the type alternator that has one positive wire and one ground wire.

 

[DirtDonk]

No it shouldn't. Not only should it not charge, but if it was trying to it would keep your starter hung up as long as it was spinning and active.
Not sure what keeps it from doing that.

And with no physical connection between the BAT terminal of the alternator and the battery, it can't charge.
Is it in fact charging? Have you measured voltage at the battery when the engine is running?

Hard to tell what each wire does by those pics. Any way you can trace each one and tell us what they do?
And what kind of alternator is that? Stock Ford? Looks to have a custom fan and black paint? I see an additional ground wire, which is a good thing.

Let us know where everything runs.

Thanks

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and if that is a stock output alternator you do not need a wire that large. A simple 10ga wire is sufficient, especially over that short of a run.

Paul

 

[Teal68]

Well Paul, You've done it again....I think!

Once I actually OHM'd the wires out I realized the starter has both wires connected to the same side of the solenoid! The alternator is correctly wired to the battery side so that is good. Only problem I have now is that all the wires won;t fit on the battery side that need to so i can't check to see if this will do the trick or or not! I need a solenoid with a longer stud, or I need to consolidated wires somehow. Looks I have a project this weekend!

I guess the the alternator is one of the single wire with the regulator built in since I can't find a regulator anywhere else. Knowing that, can the wire still be smaller gauge? Somehow I need to get all the wires on that one post!

By the way, here is how it is wired now:

 

[DirtDonk]

Yep, looks like you found the most likely culprit.
And yeah, the old starter relays always seem to run out of room when we want to make good changes!

The newer style do seem to have taller studs (the ones that come out of the top instead of the sides) but not by a lot. Might be just enough though.

Of course there are always alternate power studs as well. Was it mentioned by someone here in this thread already? Or was it somewhere else I just saw it this week. Someone had a great picture of a nice setup with an auxiliary power stud mounted to the body next to the starter relay.

Either one could be your answer.

Paul

 

[Teal68]

Thank you Paul, that did the trick!

To get all the wires on I just removed the lower nut on the stud for now. That made for fun getting it all together.

Tyler

 

[edmedlin]

Hey all,
I'm having a similar problem where the mini starter hangs up for just a bit after cranking. Thanks to this thread I have verified it is wired correctly. What could be other causes for this problem?
Thanks,
Tyler

The mini starters are high torque and they do "spin down" for a second or so after disengaging the flywheel. If it is not disengaging the flywheel, you may need to shim it. I can hear mine make a "whirring" sound for about one second or so after starting, but it is completely disengaged from the starter by then.

 

[Teal68]

The mini starters are high torque and they do "spin down" for a second or so after disengaging the flywheel. If it is not disengaging the flywheel, you may need to shim it. I can hear mine make a "whirring" sound for about one second or so after starting, but it is completely disengaged from the starter by then.

The re-wire did the trick. No more hanging up! I know what you mean about winding down. That seems normal to me.