Track Bar Riser and TRO Install Questions

[Ol'Blue]

Planning on installing the WH track bar riser and wanted you'alls thoughts on my plan.

Option 1:
One of the reasons for doing this is my track bar drop bracket hits my heavy duty coil cups under full compression. I plan to raise the hole on the drop bracket and cut off the excess. See pic.

On the axle side I plan to use the first hole which will raise the track bar 1.5" on both sides. The problem is the track bar riser hit the heavy duty coil cup which will require removing a section of the riser bracket. I don't think this will weaken the bracket. Thoughts? Its pretty stout.

Later or maybe now, I plan on tie rod over. Flipping the tie rods will raise them 3" then go with a stock pitman arm should put the track bar and drag link back paralel, but 1.5" further from one another then they are now.

My tie rod ends are very close to my wheel rim, about 3/16". Will putting the tire rod on top bring them closer to the rim?

* The issue with this option is it doesn't flatten our my track bar and drag link!

Option 2:
Do all of the above but install the track bar on the top hole of the raiser bracket for a total of 3"

** The issue with option two is it may put the riser bracket in contact with the frame at full compression, but maybe the bump stop will hand that.

And the biggest issue, this will take my track bar and drag link out of parralel since I haven't found a 1.5" drop pitman arm.

Option 3:

Put the track bar in the original hole in the drop bracket and just do some grinding on the coil cup where it comes in contact.



Thanks in advance for you input!

 

[lars]

Happy New Year.

@jamesroney had several good comments about this, and unlike me is actually still busy setting up Bronco axles. So I'll defer to him.

I see a couple of things.

I don't recall which knuckles you have. 76-77(?) knuckles have steering arms that get close to the wheels and have a reputation for hitting wheels with a TRO conversion. That said, it occurred to me that you could pop a tie rod end out of a knuckle, then insert it the opposite direction (top down). Obviously it won't drop in but it might help you visualize if a TRO swap would cause the rod end to hit the wheel.

As for the riser, James recommended using the lower of the two holes, and I agree. If you trim off the piece of the riser that interferes with the spring cup, it looks like you could simply weld it back on the inside of the riser so you wouldn't lose any strength. Since you'd likely be cutting off the upper part of the riser to eliminate the top hole anyway, it wouldn't look abnormal. That assumes of course that there is room for the bolt head after doing so. Just a thought...

 

[Ol'Blue]

Thanks Lars and Happy New Year. good ideas and will give them a shot. Yes 77 knuckles. My hope was to flatten out the track bar by raising it to the top hole 3” at the axle and 1.5” at the frame but I would have to find a 1.5” drop pitman arm if going TRO which has been no luck then also risk the riser hitting the frame. Right now I’m leaning toward raising the track bar on both ends by 1.5” and staying tie rod under. I could trim the riser as James suggested and the trim the drop bracket this would give me full compression but would not flatten out my angles.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks Lars and Happy New Year. good ideas and will give them a shot. Yes 77 knuckles. My hope was to flatten out the track bar by raising it to the top hole 3” at the axle and 1.5” at the frame but I would have to find a 1.5” drop pitman arm if going TRO which has been no luck then also risk the riser hitting the frame. Right now I’m leaning toward raising the track bar on both ends by 1.5” and staying tie rod under. I could trim the riser as James suggested and the trim the drop bracket this would give me full compression but would not flatten out my angles.

Do you have skills? Take the pitman arm from a 78-79 4x4 box. Heat it cherry red, and put 7-10 degrees of reverse twist in it. (You will note that they are "twisted" the wrong way from the factory, because they are intended to point foward...) While you have it in the forge, go ahead and put as much drop in it as you need. 1.5" is a good number. Don't even THINK of quenching it. Although I disagree with the need to do this, I am telling you how I would do it if you made me do it.

I'm probably going to do one for me this week, but more because I want the extra travel of the longer arm. Also have to trim off the excess material near the Sector splines so that my pitman arm puller fits it. I will never understand why Ford put so much metal there...and I will never understand why people don't trim them before they re-install them.

The reason why I recommend the 4x4 pitman arm is because its super beefy, and it's about 5/8 inch longer than the EB arm, and the taper for the drag link is good for the 1 ton TRE. When you twist it, and drop it...it's pretty much the same length as EB. Plus it's indexed for the 4x4x2 box, and it comes free with the box. Also, the 4x4x2 box has a shorter swing than the Saginaw box, so you run out of travel before you hit the knuckle stops. But that's another discussion.

I would worry less about flattening the trac bar, and more about where your drag link ends up. It is way more important that the drag link be parallel to the trac bar, than the trac bar be horizontal. And be skeptical of the "trac bar length must equal drag link" discussion. Go look at an 86-97 F350 Monobeam Dana 60, and you will see a trac bar that is about a foot shorter than the drag link. (But it IS horizontal!!!)

If you are serious about flattening things out, then a high steer arm is the way to go. (because "flat" is better when it's actually flat.) So that means a high steer knuckle. Which used to be really hard to find in a 5 bolt disc brake knuckle...but the aftermarket (Reid) has "re-invented" the unicorn F150 SuperCab 4x4 high steer knuckle. I don't know where the Ackerman angles come it, and I'm not convinced that the Ford Bendix brake caliper system is better than the GM/Jeep/IH Pin mounted caliper. But it really depends on what you are trying to fix, and how much money you are trying to spend.

 

[lars]

Do you have skills? Take the pitman arm from a 78-79 4x4 box. Heat it cherry red, and put 7-10 degrees of reverse twist in it. (You will note that they are "twisted" the wrong way from the factory, because they are intended to point foward...) While you have it in the forge, go ahead and put as much drop in it as you need. 1.5" is a good number. Don't even THINK of quenching it. Although I disagree with the need to do this, I am telling you how I would do it if you made me do it.

I'm probably going to do one for me this week, but more because I want the extra travel of the longer arm. Also have to trim off the excess material near the Sector splines so that my pitman arm puller fits it. I will never understand why Ford put so much metal there...and I will never understand why people don't trim them before they re-install them.

The reason why I recommend the 4x4 pitman arm is because its super beefy, and it's about 5/8 inch longer than the EB arm, and the taper for the drag link is good for the 1 ton TRE. When you twist it, and drop it...it's pretty much the same length as EB. Plus it's indexed for the 4x4x2 box, and it comes free with the box. Also, the 4x4x2 box has a shorter swing than the Saginaw box, so you run out of travel before you hit the knuckle stops. But that's another discussion.

I would worry less about flattening the trac bar, and more about where your drag link ends up. It is way more important that the drag link be parallel to the trac bar, than the trac bar be horizontal. And be skeptical of the "trac bar length must equal drag link" discussion. Go look at an 86-97 F350 Monobeam Dana 60, and you will see a trac bar that is about a foot shorter than the drag link. (But it IS horizontal!!!)

If you are serious about flattening things out, then a high steer arm is the way to go. (because "flat" is better when it's actually flat.) So that means a high steer knuckle. Which used to be really hard to find in a 5 bolt disc brake knuckle...but the aftermarket (Reid) has "re-invented" the unicorn F150 SuperCab 4x4 high steer knuckle. I don't know where the Ackerman angles come it, and I'm not convinced that the Ford Bendix brake caliper system is better than the GM/Jeep/IH Pin mounted caliper. But it really depends on what you are trying to fix, and how much money you are trying to spend.

One thing about those F150 Supercab knuckles. Duff recreated those as part of his disc brake conversion kit decades ago. I bought one of those kits around 1997. It gets the tie rod way up out of the dirt, but the arms are so high that when used TRO the tie rod hits the frame track bar mount (in my case at least, and stock- not dropped). I recently went to 70-something F150 knuckles that put the arms about 1-1/2" lower, and also corrected some other issues I had. No more contact.

 

[jamesroney]

One thing about those F150 Supercab knuckles. Duff recreated those as part of his disc brake conversion kit decades ago. I bought one of those kits around 1997. It gets the tie rod way up out of the dirt, but the arms are so high that when used TRO the tie rod hits the frame track bar mount (in my case at least, and stock- not dropped). I recently went to 70-something F150 knuckles that put the arms about 1-1/2" lower, and also corrected some other issues I had. No more contact.

yeah, I run into that with high steer arms on my YJ. So I recommend drag link to the high steer arm, and tie rod to the cast knuckle arms.

It does look funny to have a tie rod sitting down there, trac bar and tie rod are competing for the same real estate. And even though it's 3 inches higher than the factory location...it somehow looks low.

 

[Ol'Blue]

Good stuff guys! I guess it all boils down to, will flattening out the TB and DL out by only 1.5" make a noticeable difference? I cant go in the stock location of the drop bracket giving me 3" because my drop bracket will definitely come in contact with my tie rod.

I like the idea of the F150 pitman arm. I would run the risk of the riser hiting the frame.

Do you think the bump stops I have will prevent that? I have about 2" of bump stop showing.

 

[Ol'Blue]

I just did a quick check. I think I will have the same problem as James and the riser is going to hit the frame and reduce upward travel by at least 1.5"

Movies with wife, be back later to take more measurements and verify.

Thanks,

 

[Ol'Blue]

@lars I flipped the tie rod end over as you suggested and looks like I will clear the rim. Good news! I hope...... see pic.

@James,

I checked my shock travel/bump stops etc. My shock up travel will zero out about the same point that the track bar riser would hit the frame, but I have about 3" of bump stop before that happens. It looks like I could be good using the top hole in the riser and no trimming. This would allow 3" on the axle side and 1.5" at the drop bracket and I could trim off the end of the drop bracket so it wont come in contact with my tie rod. So far so good.

This means your custom 78-79 pitman arm.

My brother is a knife/sword maker and has all the goodies to bend this for me.

Questions?
Checking that the pitman arm is for a 78-79 Bronco?
Like this:

Stock pitman steering arm-Broncograveyard.com

shop.broncograveyard.com

Will the splines fit right to my stock steering box?
Will I have to get a 1 ton tie rod end for the drag link?

What else should I look out for or consider?

Again, thanks for all the help!

 

[jamesroney]

@Ol'Blue here’s pics below of the EB arm, and the 78 D8TA-3590-BA arm. The tapers measure the same. The splines interchange between the Saginaw box, and the Ford box. They are keyed differently, but the JBG arm is not keyed...so no problem.

Your bump stops are plenty tall. That won't be a problem.

You will not HAVE to get a 1 ton TRE. But you will WANT the GM TRE because the EB tie rod is junk. Everybody worries about steering geometry, (which is important) but they forget about the jacking effect of having your drag link attach to the middle of your tie rod. EB's are famous for bending tie rods in the rocks. When you move the pivot out towards the knuckle, things get better. The GM TRE system enables that.

Keep it as simple as possible. And you don't need ridiculous. 1/8 to 3/16 wall is plenty.


By the way, I didn't get a notification on this thread. You might need to use my whole username.

 

[Ol'Blue]

@jamesroney Thanks James, I have this WH tie rod and drag link so a little better than the t style I had and good for TRO.

76-77 Tie Rod & Drag Link (3 Way Adjustable, Y to T SWAP!)

76-77 Tie Rod & Drag Link (3 Way Adjustable) Do you want to swap from your stock 76-77 inverted Y style steering to a much stronger, more larger-tire, suspension lift and off-road friendly T style? Here is your kit! This kit comes with everything you need; the correct length and taper tie...

www.wildhorses4x4.com

Just want to confirm that the 78-79 pitman arm I attached above should work? Not following your comment on the JBG arm...…

Also, in your photo of the two arms side by side. It looks like they are almost identical in length or is that just the angle of the photo? I thought the 78/79 arm was 5/8" longer so I can put some bends in it.

I'll look to swapping out to GM ends later as Im concerned with interference with the rims. Maybe just do the drag link end now.

 

[BruiserOutdoors]

I am going to be running similar parts

4x4x2 box
EB pitman arm reamed for 1 ton GM TRE
TRO steering
Same bump stops
WH riser bracket (cut down, using 2nd hole down I think)
Duff HD track bar drop bracket (will probably have to cut and raise up like yourself)
Duff HD coil buckets.


The previous owner of this axle had this setup working well (minus the drop bracket). But he did have wheel spacers and made square tubing bump stop risers to add 2" of clearance, and have things bottom out sooner. Wheel spacers aren't needed and it depends on the backspacing of your wheels if the TRE will hit or not. Just thought I'd suggest those bump stop risers if you haven't already considered.

 

[jamesroney]

Also, in your photo of the two arms side by side. It looks like they are almost identical in length or is that just the angle of the photo? I thought the 78/79 arm was 5/8" longer so I can put some bends in it.

It’s 6-3/4 center to center, and about 5/8 longer than my 1970 manual steering arm. I don’t know what arm you have. Sorry for the parallax in the first pic.

 

[jamesroney]

I am going to be running similar parts

4x4x2 box
EB pitman arm reamed for 1 ton GM TRE
TRO steering
Same bump stops
WH riser bracket (cut down, using 2nd hole down I think)
Duff HD track bar drop bracket (will probably have to cut and raise up like yourself)
Duff HD coil buckets.


The previous owner of this axle had this setup working well (minus the drop bracket). But he did have wheel spacers and made square tubing bump stop risers to add 2" of clearance, and have things bottom out sooner. Wheel spacers aren't needed and it depends on the backspacing of your wheels if the TRE will hit or not. Just thought I'd suggest those bump stop risers if you haven't already considered.

Please list which knuckles you will be running. Seems to make a difference, and causes much confusion. Either:

1. 76-77 EB disc knuckles.
2. 71-75 EB drum knuckles with GM disc brakes.
3. 76-79 F150 disc knuckles.
4. 73-77 GM disc knuckles.

 

[jamesroney]

I am going to be running similar parts

4x4x2 box
EB pitman arm reamed for 1 ton GM TRE
TRO steering
Same bump stops
WH riser bracket (cut down, using 2nd hole down I think)
Duff HD track bar drop bracket (will probably have to cut and raise up like yourself)
Duff HD coil buckets.


The previous owner of this axle had this setup working well (minus the drop bracket). But he did have wheel spacers and made square tubing bump stop risers to add 2" of clearance, and have things bottom out sooner. Wheel spacers aren't needed and it depends on the backspacing of your wheels if the TRE will hit or not. Just thought I'd suggest those bump stop risers if you haven't already considered.

Watch out for that trac bar drop bracket. I went back to the original factory hole. But I'm trying to gain some up-travel. So maybe not apples to apples.
Watch out for the 4x4x2 box pitman arm clearance to tie rod. Also, the drag link gets close to the crossmember. Seems to depend on which hole you used to install your 4x4x2 box.
I like the Duff Coil brackets with the sway bar feature. But I am not sure at all about TRO clearance. When you say HD buckets, do you mean with, or without sway bar?

 

[BruiserOutdoors]

Please list which knuckles you will be running. Seems to make a difference, and causes much confusion. Either:

1. 76-77 EB disc knuckles.
2. 71-75 EB drum knuckles with GM disc brakes.
3. 76-79 F150 disc knuckles.
4. 73-77 GM disc knuckles.

I believe 76-77 EB knuckles

factory lower rear hole for 4x4x2

no sway bar

 

[Ol'Blue]

It’s 6-3/4 center to center, and about 5/8 longer than my 1970 manual steering arm. I don’t know what arm you have. Sorry for the parallax in the first pic.

@jamesroney Thanks James, measured mine and its bout 6" center to center. Plan is to order the 78/79 arm today, make sure splines and tapers line up then bend it up to make sure it will work before welding up the riser and cutting off the drop bracket.

It looks like my drag link will get close to my frame cross member under full compression and bump stops maxed out. I'm going to mock everything up, pull the coils out and compress everything to make sure all is good. Finger crossed.

 

[jamesroney]

@jamesroney Thanks James, measured mine and its bout 6" center to center. Plan is to order the 78/79 arm today, make sure splines and tapers line up then bend it up to make sure it will work before welding up the riser and cutting off the drop bracket.

It looks like my drag link will get close to my frame cross member under full compression and bump stops maxed out. I'm going to mock everything up, pull the coils out and compress everything to make sure all is good. Finger crossed.

I thought my 5/8 inch guess was pretty good by eyeball. But I admit that I'm getting older.

I have mine set up with the factory pitman arm, and the 4x4x2 box, and no springs. I'll go compress the suspension and see when the drag link hits the cross-member. Give me a minute...

 

[lars]

I thought my 5/8 inch guess was pretty good by eyeball. But I admit that I'm getting older.

I have mine set up with the factory pitman arm, and the 4x4x2 box, and no springs. I'll go compress the suspension and see when the drag link hits the cross-member. Give me a minute...

Hm. I'm still running the original manual 1970 steering gear pitman arm (one of the few original things left on my Bronco) on my 4x4x2 box. In the spirit of endlessly messing with things, maybe I need to try one of the 78-79 pitman arms.

 

[Ol'Blue]

Hm. I'm still running the original manual 1970 steering gear pitman arm (one of the few original things left on my Bronco) on my 4x4x2 box. In the spirit of endlessly messing with things, maybe I need to try one of the 78-79 pitman arms.

I just ordered mine. The only places that had the fully indexable were Bronco Graveyard (link above) and possibly Duffs.