ZDDP, cam/lifter break-in results and DLC

[nvrstuk]

I was going to post this up in James informative thread on new oil regs but thought for once I'd try something new... NOT stealing a thread even tho it's related! lol

This is an interesting read. Normally I never watch YouTube videos but this popped up and since we've been talking oil a lot the past few days.... Seems to be authenticated and whatever with real measurements unlike most YouTube "results". I've checked into available DLC lifters. Not cheap but beats buying two sets of cams and lifters!

I'll try to find the informative thread I posted up 2 yrs ago on oils and pressure ratings. also..

https://www.enginelabs.com/news/lake-speed-jr-puts-zinc-oil-additives-and-dlc-lifters-to-the-test/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Testing ZDDP And DLC Coating For Flat Tappet Break-In, Discussing Different Valve Materials, SwRI s Hydrogen Combustion Research Continues To Bear Fruit, And More From EngineLabs com!&utm_campaign=EL 9/9/26 (Copy)

 

[DirtDonk]

Just stayed up late watching that last night in fact!
Very interesting.

 

[Chiclassics]

Good insights.

 

[Bruners4]

Here is a pretty good video that talks about the DLC flat tappet lifters.

 

[dougsride]

I am installing Elgin DLC lifters in my rebuild this week. Combined with break in oil they have proven to work well. Just remember if you use a additive, mix it with your oil prior to pouring in the engine. The first couple minutes of start up are the most crucial for protection. Check out the lifter test on the motor oil geeks youtube channel.

 

[jamesroney]

@nvrstuk I am really trying to stay quiet. But alas, no more. I hate that Lake Speed guy.

The FACTs are confirmed, in the video, at 4:09, and again at 8:28. and again in all of the data posted in the charts.

API service index SQ in 10w-30 DESTROYS flat tappet camshafts on break in.

That is the single most compelling piece of "Science" in the 30 minute video.

Everything ELSE in the video is confirmation of measurement, and mitigations. IDGAF about mitigations, or chemistry, or additives. What we KNOW is that the API conspired with the EPA and the OEM car manufacturers to obsolete, destroy, and take your property. And then LIED about it for years. And they lie about it still today, by saying that API SQ oil is equivalent to API SD oil. Demonstrably FALSE.

We also know that if you use the correct oil in the owners manual for your Bronco, (API SD) oil that this does not happen. Comp Cams has bore the brunt of this effort, and has endured significant damage to their brand...BECAUSE of the misinformation.

The Lake Speed infomercial for DLC coated lifters is nice. But it's fake news. Because as he points out in his own video numerous times...if you use the correct blend of oil, you get satisfactory results. Which is delightful to know. BUT the logic goes like this:

Scientific FACT: If you use the correct oil, your cam will deliver good results.
Conclusion: Buy expensive DLC lifters.

HUH? I can make my camshaft insensitive to bad oil by buying DLC coated lifters. That's nice. Guess what? I can make my camshaft insensitive to bad oil by installing a roller cam. The answer delivered by Lake Speed did not answer the question. The question was: "Do classic cars need High Zinc Oil?" and the answer is "Yes. Classic cars need the right oil, which includes high zinc"

He peddles oil analysis and is a sponsored youtuber. Therefore: Idiot.

Don't get me wrong, I agree 99% with his scientific method, and his data and results. I agree 1% with his conclusions and recommendations.

I'll tell you WHY, if someone pings me in this thread. Otherwise I'll go away.

 

[jamesroney]

Never mind. I'll ping myself. @jamesroney

So here's the meta data from AI. It is coarse, crude, and has a high margin of error. But even if it is 10% margin of error, it's more than good enough. Keep in mind that I am a Six Sigma Black Belt, and Kaizen expert. (and yeah, Tyco, Danaher and Fortive Business System evangelist. Senior Director of Engineering, etc.)

The Lake Speed analysis is 100% factual, and is useful. But with all science, it needs to be applied correctly. And if a theory explains 60% of observable events, it is absolutely significant. But if the theory does NOT explain 40% of the data...it is INCOMPLETE.

And here's why Lake Speed is a moron. (in Kaizen Shin Jiu-Jitsu terms, we would call him a "concrete head.") The historical records show that there was a proportional and significant spike in legacy camshaft failure at the same time. Comp Cams was being blamed for selling shitty blanks, but FACTORY camshafts from late 60's and early 70's engines with 40K to 200K miles had a correlated spike. There was a period of time in in the early 2000's...when I was swapping wiped out factory cams for no apparent reason. It made absolutely zero sense. But the retrospective data shows that EVERY shop nationwide was seeing the same thing. Legacy camshafts going flat, and shops generating income by replacing flat cams. In VASTLY higher proportions. It is NOT JUST break in.

So until Lake Speed can resolve the fundamental flaw in his engineering analysis, the solution CANNOT be evaluated during break in only. There is a longer term failure mode that his model does not contemplate.

So am I smarter than Lake Speed? Doesn't matter. I am unbiased, and I observe more. You don't have to be smart to see things.

 

[Bronco808]

Amazing data and perfect timing. I just put in a new Edelbrock Performer cam, manifold, carb, and speedmaster aluminum heads in my wife 73 and getting closer to start her up and do the break-in.

 

[73azbronco]

So....Roller cams......

 

[pcf_mark01]

So....Roller cams......

This is the answer. For a few hundred more all in I can get near infinite life, more torque, more horsepower and better drivability? Count me in!

I'm not taking sides but I have never seen a factual chart on the number of old cams that expired in the 90s that was supposed to be caused by oil standards changing. I have HEARD a lot of people say that but the only flat cams I ever saw died on break in or within the first hour. Could be oil or it could be parts.

 

[73azbronco]

I know there was is a serious metalurgical issue effecing many manufacturers, jeep 3.6 valvetrain dies by 50,000 miles, same for chevy gm trucks? All since about mid 2000's.