• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

More Caster/Alignment/drivability ideas?

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
49,346
Thanks. Just goes to show how little caster these things had from the factory. Either that, or the negative change when lifting is a lot more severe than originally calculated.
Without compensating bushings, and assuming that the arms don’t have any compensation, your 2 1/2 inches of lift would’ve put you at between 1 and 2° negative caster.
If the arms do have 4° built in to them, then you’d have been at -5 to -6 without them!
 

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
362
Ok, your are at 7 degrees of caster, and still darty?

How does it drive with the power steering pump disconnected?

( Or coasting when the engine is turned off.)

Good ideas to try, thanks!

I’ve tried the “bounce the front end and watch the wheel” test and didn’t see any movement. Do folks think that is a solid check for bad drag bar / track bar geometry?

Besides drag bar / track bar geometey, are there other bump steer contributors?
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,849
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
Good ideas to try, thanks!

I’ve tried the “bounce the front end and watch the wheel” test and didn’t see any movement. Do folks think that is a solid check for bad drag bar / track bar geometry?

Besides drag bar / track bar geometey, are there other bump steer contributors?
Bad or incorrectly valved shocks will feel that they induce bump steer, so will incorrect air pressure for your combination. Rear spring bushings, loose ubolts and again shocks in the rear. In some cases one seen thrust angle way out of wack from the rear cause it as well, usually the result of an accident causing a bent frame or bent rear axle housing.
 

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
362
Bad or incorrectly valved shocks will feel that they induce bump steer, so will incorrect air pressure for your combination. Rear spring bushings, loose ubolts and again shocks in the rear. In some cases one seen thrust angle way out of wack from the rear cause it as well, usually the result of an accident causing a bent frame or bent rear axle housing.
Ah, thanks for reminding me about shocks, need to check the air pressure in my Fox COs.

Any idea of how much thrust angle in back axle is an issue. My alignment papers showed some rear toe which I mainly attributed to fab. From memory, it seemed like the direction of toe on the rear axle was different (leading to my conclusion it was alignment during fab versus entire axle being cocked over). Don’t think my alignment paper showed a thrust angle)

I’m gonna go dig the alignment spec out again.

@Torkman66, apologies if it feels like I hijacked your thread, seems like the dialogue will be good for everybody. Happy to start a separate thread if you prefer, let me know
 
OP
OP
Torkman66

Torkman66

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2022
Messages
680
If I went with T-Rex at this point it theoretically would add another 4* of caster which would put me at about 8.3* total. I’m sure that would provide much better handling but it would also drop the piñon from current 5* to 9*. While this is a street ride that will never use 4wd, still considering cut and turn. But T-Rex would sure be an easy way to make it drive nice…I think.
 
OP
OP
Torkman66

Torkman66

Contributor
Full Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2022
Messages
680
@ksagis all good. This is an important topic. I know most if not all of this has been discussed before by the gurus here, but having a new thread brings in new voices, new experiences, and sometimes new solutions. There are new products as well and understanding how the system works is soooo important. Had I known what I know now when building my Bronco, lots of things would have been done different.
 

Johnnyb

Contributor
Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2001
Messages
1,041
Loc.
Flagstaff
If I went with T-Rex at this point it theoretically would add another 4* of caster which would put me at about 8.3* total. I’m sure that would provide much better handling but it would also drop the piñon from current 5* to 9*. While this is a street ride that will never use 4wd, still considering cut and turn. But T-Rex would sure be an easy way to make it drive nice…I think.
T-Rex also restores your turning radius!
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,849
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
Ah, thanks for reminding me about shocks, need to check the air pressure in my Fox COs.

Any idea of how much thrust angle in back axle is an issue. My alignment papers showed some rear toe which I mainly attributed to fab. From memory, it seemed like the direction of toe on the rear axle was different (leading to my conclusion it was alignment during fab versus entire axle being cocked over). Don’t think my alignment paper showed a thrust angle)

I’m gonna go dig the alignment spec out again.

@Torkman66, apologies if it feels like I hijacked your thread, seems like the dialogue will be good for everybody. Happy to start a separate thread if you prefer, let me know
You have CO’s…. that adds to the equation. Generic valving is a guess at best. It is worth every penny to find the best shock tuner money can buy and pay them to tune the shocks and make any adjustments needed to spring rates. It’s some of the best money for ride and drive you can spend.

As for the toe in the rear it needs to be more than .25 of a degree. More and it tends to chase ruts in the road.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,883
Loc.
Upper SoKA
After years of driving Birfield equipped Toyotas I can't tell you how nice it is to have something with a turning radius remarkably smaller than that of the U.S.S. Missouri.

I'll second what Yeller said about getting the damping tuned right. It can be an unbelievable change in how the vehicle behaves and performs. As a starting point, a good friend had a very good experience with Accutune, but they are far from being the only option.
 

Johnnyb

Contributor
Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2001
Messages
1,041
Loc.
Flagstaff
After years of driving Birfield equipped Toyotas I can't tell you how nice it is to have something with a turning radius remarkably smaller than that of the U.S.S. Missouri.

I'll second what Yeller said about getting the damping tuned right. It can be an unbelievable change in how the vehicle behaves and performs. As a starting point, a good friend had a very good experience with Accutune, but they are far from being the only option.
I love going out with Jeeps and watching them back & fill corners!
 

lars

Contributor
Been here awhile
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
3,193
Loc.
NorCal flatlands
If I went with T-Rex at this point it theoretically would add another 4* of caster which would put me at about 8.3* total. I’m sure that would provide much better handling but it would also drop the piñon from current 5* to 9*. While this is a street ride that will never use 4wd, still considering cut and turn. But T-Rex would sure be an easy way to make it drive nice…I think.
20-something years ago when I was seeking a solution for my wandering Bronco, I had a 4" measured suspension lift, 7° C bushings and eccentric upper ball joint bushings that added another 1.5° of caster. And I discovered that with the front axle at full droop the axle end of the front driveshaft was completely bound up. If I had unloaded the front suspension while in 4wd it would've destroyed the driveshaft, among other things. I was just learning about the significance of caster for straight line stability. My boss had just had the alignment on his stock 78 big Bronco done, he showed me the printout. Jaw-dropping 7 degrees. Right around then someone posted (here, I think but the memory is lost to time) that he had done a cut n' turn. Hmmm. The rest is history.

I know you aren't planning on using 4wd but I'd advise checking for front driveshaft bind anyway. Would not be fun if one time you decided to lock the front and you wound up ripping the front driveshaft out.

Pics show a much younger and skinnier me in the old farm machine shop at my then-work, next to my front axle buried in tools and stuff. And a detail of 1/2 of the simple but extremely effective measuring gadget (the other was in the other C) an idea from @ntsqd that I made and used to get both sides the same. Calibrated eyeball to sight along the rods from side to side. In the end they turned out to be within 1/10 of a degree of each other. Other than that my friend and I really didn't know what we were doing. We were both experienced fabricators (he more than me) but we had nothing to go on, had no idea if the C's were pressed on, how deep the welds were that we had to dig out, etc. Got lucky and it worked out.

IMG_0962.JPG IMG_0964.JPG
 

jamesroney

Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,952
Loc.
Fremont, CA
Good ideas to try, thanks!

I’ve tried the “bounce the front end and watch the wheel” test and didn’t see any movement. Do folks think that is a solid check for bad drag bar / track bar geometry?

Besides drag bar / track bar geometey, are there other bump steer contributors?
the best way to check for track bar geometry on a Bronco is to just look at it. The links are close enough to each other that you can see the "parallelogram" by eye.

Bouncing to test for bump steer is kind of useless. You need to remove the shocks in order to cycle the suspension enough to exaggerate the motion to actually see any bump steer deflection. By then, the axle is shifting laterally more than the bump steer is inducing steering, and you can't see anything.

If you launch your Bronco in the big moguls on the trail, you can get big suspension movement to get maximum bump steer. On a properly aligned front axle, the bump input is predictable, and mildly annoying. I've seen up to 1/4 turn of steering input needed to compensate. But you can still maintain perfect control at speed. Bump steer does not "cause" darty steering. Bump steer will induce darty steering, but if you have darty steering, you will get it by simple lane corrections, road imperfections, directional changes, cross-wind, AND bumps.

@Yeller is giving some great advice regarding rear axle dynamics. A Bronco with loose rear u-bolts will have all sorts of wierd and ugly steering effects...including dartyness.

I'm using dartyness as a word to describe what some will call wandering, or lack of centering force, or vagueness. Happens at highway speeds, usually when trying to make a lane change. Old timers would say that it "won't hold the road." I have to be careful here, because people that build race cars have very different expectations for very similar effects...and we all use the same words. As soon as you start to approach the limits of adhesion or tire sidewall rigidity...the vehicle dynamics mean different things. Slip angle, contact patch, tread deformation, load vs grip, ackerman, camber, lateral acceleration, turn-in, understeer, oversteer, snap-throttle, suspension loading, and unloading, anti-ackerman, and a whole bunch of suspension, tuning, and valving come into play. And it's important, and it's a science unto itself. So I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by saying it's crap. But for the purpose of getting a Bronco to make a modest lane change down the freeway at 60 MPH...it's not applicable.

So you can chase bump steer if you like. It's not a horrid endeavor. But you'll still want to cure your darty steering. So let's get back to some basics. Shock valving is also a science. I am always baffled by the general assumption that high value shocks are somehow better. They most certainly can be better, but they can also be worse. I don't like under-damped front suspension on a Bronco. I don't even like gas charged Bilsteins. Bone jarring RS5000's, or RS9000's set to max seem to do a good job. The 70/30's from Duff are aslo pretty stiff, but you want at least 2 per corner. Rock crawler springs, and super flexy suspension didn't do anyone any favors. So if your Bronco "wallows" or "sways" or is generally "vague" and "listless" then your dampening needs attention. I prefer to start with over-damped, stiff suspension, and minimal deflection under load...which is the exact opposite of "flexy rock crawler." I'm convinced that any Bronco with a 3 inch rock crawler lift will need a front sway bar. Not because it is darty, but because it wallows and feels like you are sitting on top of an exercise ball.

Hope that helps.
 

Yeller

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
6,849
Loc.
Rogers County Oklahoma
@jamesroney brings up a good point. I often forget what driving the typical lifted bronco feels like. My personal truck is highly modified, it sits at stock height in regards to body and axle height relationship, has 37’s, full width and the seats are lowered 5” so your sitting in the belly of the beast instead of on top of the saddle on its back.

Steering angle is also a good thing. I’ve modded my front axle to steer 45 degrees, as much as I could get and it not severely complicate everything else. It is extremely maneuverable. Combine that with a twin stick and you can turnaround in your own tracks.
 
Last edited:

ntsqd

heratic car camper
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,883
Loc.
Upper SoKA
If you really want to dig into bump-steer you need to measure ride height at the frame where you can support it with stands, and at some easy spot to reference on the front axle. Then remove the front tires, dampers, and springs. Set the frame on stands at normal ride height. Lock the steering wheel from being able to move. Then cycle the front axle thru it's travel range to get an idea of what it's doing overall, but the zone of most interest is going to be the 2" on either side of ride height with the 2" in bump being slightly more important. If you have the steering rigidly locked, then bump-steer will show up as steering the front knuckles/brakes/etc. as you cycle the suspension.
This is the only way that I know of to actually see what the bump-steer looks like and is doing.
 

ksagis

Contributor
Aspiring Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
362
If you really want to dig into bump-steer you need to measure ride height at the frame where you can support it with stands, and at some easy spot to reference on the front axle. Then remove the front tires, dampers, and springs. Set the frame on stands at normal ride height. Lock the steering wheel from being able to move. Then cycle the front axle thru it's travel range to get an idea of what it's doing overall, but the zone of most interest is going to be the 2" on either side of ride height with the 2" in bump being slightly more important. If you have the steering rigidly locked, then bump-steer will show up as steering the front knuckles/brakes/etc. as you cycle the suspension.
This is the only way that I know of to actually see what the bump-steer looks like and is doing.
This is high value feedback and totally logical to create what a real world road condition would create.

Bouncing a suspension is relying on front tires not moving and therefore transmitting the reaction all the way to the steering wheel seems an indirect way to assessing bump steer as a steering box properly setup would absorb some amount of “reaction” when properly centered.

I’ll get some picks of my front end along with some angles and lengths when I get back home for some feedback as well.
 
Top