Harmonic balancer blues...

[Blitzen72]

So... under the heading of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" I have not checked the timing on my '72 bronco since I bought it back in 2002...

After the trip down to Lodi for the WIld Horses Roundup, I figured maybe, with a little tinkering, the old girl could run just a bit better. I bought a vacuum gage and a fancy timing light this week... hooked up the vacuum gage to the manifold inlet port on the carb, it read ~ 13 psi at idle. (Carb is a 2 barrel Holley w/manual choke that's been on the bronco since I bought it, tore it completely apart and rebuilt it with Holley kit 2 years ago) I adjusted both screws more or less equally until I peaked vacuum at 17 psi. Basically, screwed both idle adjustment screws 'in' about a half turn each, tops. Hopefully, that rich exhaust smell is minimized. Dropped RPM noticeably leaning it out a it.

Hooked up the new timing light to the battery and the #1 plug wire, fired up the engine (really, it runs pretty smooth...), and pushed the 'on' button. Was NOT showing the timing marks at all. Figured maybe I had the wrong plug wire... put it on the #5 plug wire. Still no joy on seeing timing marks. Tried #2 plug wire and #6 plug wire... Did see something I've never noticed... the harmonic balancer has some yellow paint pen marks where the timing light was flashing on the #5 plug wire: "69 302" (???)

One of the previous owners put power steering in the truck at some point in the distant past. I'm wondering if he put a different harmonic balancer in to fit the 2 groove pulley (3 hole vs. 4 hole???) he needed to add power steering, and maybe the new balancer had different timing marks (?)

Does anyone here know if a '69 harmonic balancer for a 302 would have had its timing pointer on the passenger side of the engine? Is the front passenger side piston the #1 piston? Am I completely out of my mind???

Next steps in tuning up... new plugs (I think I replaced them in 2002 - 2005 time frame, along with plug wires, maybe 8k miles since I did that) and new plug wires.

Should I mess with points and condenser in the distributor, given that the truck seems to run as smooth as it does(?)

 

[Broncobowsher]

Ford was horrible about this. I remember on year there was a car that had 3 possible timing pointer locations depending on options. Standard location, but with power steering it moved to a different location. But that was blocked if A/C was optioned so there was a 3rd option. Something crazy like that.

When I built the 351 many years ago (same front of engine as a 302) I was using the damper that I had with the engine. But to install an early waterpump I was forced to choose if I wanted a timing pointer or a lower radiator hose. Both wanted to be in the same place.

So it is completely possible you have a mix match of dampers and timing pointers. The other, also likely, is the old engine spun the outer ring on the damper. This pretty common when engines get old and the bonded rubber ages and is no longer bonding. This is actually bad. If the ring started slipping, not only can it rotate around the hub, it can slip off the hub. It can cause all kinds of havoc if it comes off. Because it doesn't just fall to the ground, the crank pulley keeps it on the engine. so it is captive and flailing around.

 

[spap]

Advance till it start s a little rattle on acceleration or a hill and back it down a tad till you find the sweet spot That sounds just a bit frustrating though, I also follow the religion if it isn’t broke don’t touch it. But you know when you get great Mexican food and the guy tells you hot plate ,you touch it. Haa

 

[DirtDonk]

Yes, number one cylinder is passenger side front
Yes, as far as I know, all Early Broncos had the pointer in the same location. Don’t remember double checking on those equipped with a Thermactor pump, but I believe they were all in the same location. Someone else will have to remember where it is though! For once I can’t remember where the stock location was anymore. Should not have changed when the damper changed at some point (74?) though.
Yes, as the others said, a replacement damper could vary easily (in fact most likely!) have had the timing marks in the wrong location.
For many years, the damper rebuilders/manufacturers didn’t pay attention, didn’t know, or just didn’t care if they got the right ones for the right applications.
And then there were the chances that someone changed one into a box and returned it to the parts store, so the wrong one went back on the shelf to be sold to the next unsuspecting owner.
Finally, after many years of frustration, many of the aftermarket manufacturers started putting all three timing mark locations on every damper.
Finally problem solved.

If you have a points distributor still, and it’s still set the way it was 23 years ago, you either have never driven it in that time, or it has in fact changed.
Even back when points and condensers were of a much higher quality, just driving it for a couple of months would have caused the timing to change.
Back then, if someone had time and the inclination, they probably spent a lot of their free time cleaning, adjusting, and just generally tweaking a points ignition.
Modern parts, however, are of a very questionable quality. Questionable to the point that in most cases, you probably got a bad condenser right out of the box. Causing more trouble than you anticipated and left time for.
So I would at least start by cleaning and adjusting the existing set up. As you said, if it’s working, don’t mess with it. But with points, you have to mess with it. So in this case, change that phrase to “if it’s old school, keep it!“ And continue to use the existing parts as long as they are serviceable.

Your next project right now, though, is to find top dead center on the engine, and create timing marks where the pointer is. Where is your pointer by the way? Got pictures?
Should not be too difficult, but can take a little bit of time and effort.
From there, mark 5 and 10° before top dead center increments and then use your timing light again to see where you stand.

And speaking of timing lights, if yours is a dial back or adjustable type, make sure it’s set to zero.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Advance till it start s a little rattle on acceleration or a hill and back it down a tad till you find the sweet spot That sounds just a bit frustrating though, I also follow the religion if it isn’t broke don’t touch it. But you know when you get great Mexican food and the guy tells you hot plate ,you touch it. Haa

That will get you something drivable, but not ideal. Generally that is too much advance. From people who tune for a living, you want the least amount of timing without hurting power. Sometimes you have to pull a little extra to save from detonation, in which case you are not running enough octane or have a mechanical issue (hot spot).

If you get really lost on finding TDC, pull the crank bolt and washer. You can see a keyway in the damper hub. When that is straight up you are at TDC #1. Eyeballing straight up isn't easy, especially while the engine is installed. But it can give you a starting point if you are too lost.

 

[ntsqd]

Smokey Yunick has been quoted as saying "Two degrees too much timing will hurt you, two degrees too little timing won't make a difference." Or something close to that.
Until you have valid timing marks to work with, err on the side of too little timing, its safer.

What I recall is that SBF's want 10°-12° initial timing and about 34° total (Initial + mech advance). Chevies are different in what they want, so if you've a Chevy friend helping you ignore what they say.

FWIW with points you don't actually need a timing light, but you do need a timing mark. Initial timing can be set with a test light. ACVW's have had their timing set this way going all the way back to the beginning.

Damperdudes up in Anderson can rebuild your damper if you find that the ring has moved.

 

[Blitzen72]

Still have points and condenser inside the distributor cap. Have not messed with anything inside there in 23 years next month... but, also probably have not driven the bronco more than 8,000 miles in the last 23 years -- a lot of folks are putting 8k in a single year (or twice that!)...this was my hunting rig up in the Sierra from '02- ~'10, then ran the kids to little league and cub scouts and ice cream runs for a few more years, then by 2013 -2023, my career was too all-consuming and it probably sat under a tarp out behind the garage far more days than it ever ran. 2022 I started rebuilding it as the son was off to college, the daughter right behind him, I had a little more discretionary income, and wanted to get my old friend fixed up, even if it's just to go and drive down to the local microbrewery on a warm summers eve.

The timing pointer is on the drivers side, just past top dead center. I can PM pictures of both the distributor internals and the location of the timing mark... have not paid to be able to post them in the forums yet.

 

[Blitzen72]

I would add, this thing has been my "Christine"... she has never let me down or left me on the side of the road, in 23 years. Well, except for that one time I ran her completely out of gas. She always got me home safe.

 

[Blitzen72]

Wait... the outer ring with the timing marks on it can move on this thing???

I guess I'm looking at getting a new harmonic dampener then. And a double groove pulley to run my alt/water pump and my power steering pump.

 

[serial car restorer]

The timing pointer is on the drivers side, just past top dead center. I can PM pictures of both the distributor internals and the location of the timing mark... have not paid to be able to post them in the forums yet.

That's where the pointer is on my '69 (which apparently has a '68 289 in it). I couldn't see any mark on mine until I thoroughly cleaned it. The marks are not very deeply stamped. But they were there, filled flush with dirt. I'd pop off the distributor cap and turn it over by hand until the rotor is pointing to about 1 o'clock (looking from the front), maybe 1:30. That should get you in the ballpark for the marks. Then scrape and wire brush the area around the pointer. You may well find the marks. In my case I have 30° worth, from 20° BTDC to 10° ATDC.

 

[Master Chief]

Wait... the outer ring with the timing marks on it can move on this thing???

I guess I'm looking at getting a new harmonic dampener then. And a double groove pulley to run my alt/water pump and my power steering pump.

This is the original balancer that I removed from my ‘69 302 back in 2016.

I was loading up scrap to take to salvage and noticed that when I put this in my trailer that the outer ring moved. I picked it back up and, with no effort, pushed the center free of the outer ring.

 

[Slowleak]

Wait... the outer ring with the timing marks on it can move on this thing???

I guess I'm looking at getting a new harmonic dampener then. And a double groove pulley to run my alt/water pump and my power steering pump.

When you get your new one, paint a line on it starting at the center and crossing the outer ring. Then you can tell if the outer ring ever slips. Mine did…..

 

[Blitzen72]

I definitely found the marks, they're really obvious. Even polished them with some steel wool so the shone pretty good. Then in desperation, I put a little tag of yellow electrical tape at the 5° past TDC, so ev3n if my timing light didn't show the marks, that tag should show up like a sore thumb. The light hooked to the #1 plug wire was lighting up a blank piece of harmonic dampner.

It must have spun at some point in the past...

 

[Oldtimer]

The timing pointer is on the drivers side, just past top dead center. I can PM pictures of both the distributor internals and the location of the timing mark... have not paid to be able to post them in the forums yet.

The pointer on my 68 289 was on drivers side between 1 and 2 o'clock, and where it ended up on the 75 351W, since it is the same timing chain cover.

This dampner is a PRO/STREET, sold by Wildhorses.

The red line is aligned with the key way slot in dampner.
The pointer is bolted to timing chain cover, and points to 0°.

There are also two more sets of timing marks on balancer, for different flavors of pointer location.

 

[jamesroney]

I definitely found the marks, they're really obvious. Even polished them with some steel wool so the shone pretty good. Then in desperation, I put a little tag of yellow electrical tape at the 5° past TDC, so ev3n if my timing light didn't show the marks, that tag should show up like a sore thumb. The light hooked to the #1 plug wire was lighting up a blank piece of harmonic dampner.

It must have spun at some point in the past...

Here we go...

Please remove the distributor cap. Using the starter, bump the engine until the rotor points to the #1 cylinder on the cap. If you want to be more precise, rotate the crank by hand, until the rotor is aimed at the #1 cylinder, and the points just open, or "break."

Look at your timing pointer. It will be pointing somewhere between 5-15 degrees BTDC. More than close enough to get you in the ball park.

Your yellow electrical tape will be right there.

Please confirm that your timing pointer is in the location in the @Oldtimer pic, and it is on the Driver's side near the fuel pump.

Ford dampers are indeed confusing. But there are general rules, and "exceptions." There were 4 dampers in 69 for the 302, plus one for the 351W In 1969, small block 302 CAR dampers were 3 bolt, innies...with passenger side water pump. The 351W damper was an outie. The exception is the 1969 TRUCK Balancer, C9TE-6316-A1 which is a 4 bolt damper for a 302. So no one can answer your question on the 1969 302 damper...because Ford used two dampers on the 302 for that year. And they time in different locations. I'll make a chart here:

1. C9OE-6316-D1 = 28 oz, 3 bolt, drivers side, innie, counterweight outside. (1969 302)
2. C9OE-6316-D2 = 28 oz, 3 bolt, drivers side, innie, counterweight inside. (1969 302)
3. C9TE-6316-A1 = 28 oz, 4 bolt, passenger side, outie, counterweight inside. (1969-70 302 in a Truck, but not a Bronco or Econoline)
4. C9OE-6316-E1 = 28 oz, 3 bolt, drivers side, OUTIE, counterweight inside. (1969 351W that everybody wants because it's an outie)
5. C9ZE-6316-C = 28 oz, 3 bolt, drivers side, innie, counterweight inside. ( Boss 302 only...you don't have one.)

edit...There is a 6th. I don't know the PN, but its a 28oz, 3 bolt, drivers side outie, with an outside counterweight. It's on my original 69 Bronco 302 take-out engine, and I'd have to pull it to read the PN. But it exists.

 

[Oldtimer]

James,

Difference that defines innie and outie, or a picture of one of them?

 

[jamesroney]

James,

Difference that defines innie and outie, or a picture of one of them?

Here's an innie, an outie, and a pic of the aftermarket conversion hub hardware. Most of the lower pulleys these days are smooth bore, and looking for a hub, or an outie. The 73-77 Bronco with factory PS ran an oddball version of the 69 351W damper with an outie. So Bronco people are constantly messing things up because they have Bronco stuff. The Mustang guys run from 64-68 with an innie. It's like two tribes that can't understand each other.

All Broncos with factory PS are looking for the 1969 351W 2 groove lower pulley. (with PS, w/o AC, w/o thermactor.) MOST aftermarket dampers are innies and use the adapter. Of course the one in the pic is an aftermarket outie...sorry.

 

[EPB72]

pic of the 69 351w balancer. To the OP you can TDC #1 and make your own 0 mark for now to confirm itiming with your light

 

[Blitzen72]

Here we go...

Please remove the distributor cap. Using the starter, bump the engine until the rotor points to the #1 cylinder on the cap. If you want to be more precise, rotate the crank by hand, until the rotor is aimed at the #1 cylinder, and the points just open, or "break."

Look at your timing pointer. It will be pointing somewhere between 5-15 degrees BTDC. More than close enough to get you in the ball park.

Your yellow electrical tape will be right there.

Timing pointer is indeed on drivers side up top where everyone is saying it should be.

Bumped the motor over to get the rotor at the #1 cylinder, verified that the points contact had just passed the correct lobe on the cam...

And the timing marks are almost facing down... roughly 120° off from where the timing pointer is. I'll be ordering a new harmonic damper, mine must have slipped its outer ring... a bunch. Not surprising for a 53 year old... (tomorrow is the Expensive Mistress' birthday, she came off the assembly line May 24th, 1972!).

I was almost 4 years old.

 

[Oldtimer]

Can you pull the bolt and washer off the crank, and see where the keyway is on the harmonic balancer?