4x4x2 questions

[widowmaker77]

Hey guys I have a couple of questions here.
I’m installing the duffs dual sport steering system on my 66 and I have the 4x4x2 box. When I pulled my old draglink off, I noticed there seems to a slight amount of movement (backlash) between the sector shaft gear and the gear teeth on the piston assembly. More movement than i expect. I’ve always heard not to adjust the stud sticking up out the top of the box but I’m wondering if I do tighten it up some will possibly get rid of this slack??
Also I ran across this thread https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/78-79-bronco-steering-box-in-eb.81276/ talking about there being an issue with these shafts snapping suddenly. So I’m a little concerned now about this possible issue. Have any of yall ran across this issue and how common is this? I mean this box is old now so I’m looking at this two different ways.
1: it’s old has been tested tried and true so don’t worry about it.
2: it’s old and has been stressed countless times over the years and should be replaced.
What do you guys think about this possible issue? Has anyone been able to get a new sector shaft from like red top?

 

[toddz69]

Hey guys I have a couple of questions here.
I’m installing the duffs dual sport steering system on my 66 and I have the 4x4x2 box. When I pulled my old draglink off, I noticed there seems to a slight amount of movement (backlash) between the sector shaft gear and the gear teeth on the piston assembly. More movement than i expect. I’ve always heard not to adjust the stud sticking up out the top of the box but I’m wondering if I do tighten it up some will possibly get rid of this slack??
Also I ran across this thread https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/78-79-bronco-steering-box-in-eb.81276/ talking about there being an issue with these shafts snapping suddenly. So I’m a little concerned now about this possible issue. Have any of yall ran across this issue and how common is this? I mean this box is old now so I’m looking at this two different ways.
1: it’s old has been tested tried and true so don’t worry about it.
2: it’s old and has been stressed countless times over the years and should be replaced.
What do you guys think about this possible issue? Has anyone been able to get a new sector shaft from like red top?

As far as I can recall, Saddleup was the only person on this board that ever posted anything about sector shafts breaking in the 4x4x2 boxes. Based on his posts, you'd think it was a common thing but I've never heard of anyone else experiencing a failure. Since there are now repop boxes available, someone is making sector shafts - probably made of Chinesium.

When I had my spare box rebuilt last year, I had Lee Power Steering do it since they magnaflux the sector shafts - I don't know of any other builder that does that. I had two spares - the first one I sent had a crack in a tooth in it so they wouldn't use it.

Todd Z.

 

[widowmaker77]

As far as I can recall, Saddleup was the only person on this board that ever posted anything about sector shafts breaking in the 4x4x2 boxes. Based on his posts, you'd think it was a common thing but I've never heard of anyone else experiencing a failure. Since there are now repop boxes available, someone is making sector shafts - probably made of Chinesium.

When I had my spare box rebuilt last year, I had Lee Power Steering do it since they magnaflux the sector shafts - I don't know of any other builder that does that. I had two spares - the first one I sent had a crack in a tooth in it so they wouldn't use it.

Todd Z.

Thanks Todd! Yeah I’ve been googling around and this is the only reference I can find about the shaft breaking. I’ve since emailed both red and blue top to see if I can buy a new shaft but I will contact lees also. If I adjust the screw on top, will that help reduce this little bit of extra clearance I have between the sector and piston teeth?

 

[toddz69]

Thanks Todd! Yeah I’ve been googling around and this is the only reference I can find about the shaft breaking. I’ve since emailed both red and blue top to see if I can buy a new shaft but I will contact lees also. If I adjust the screw on top, will that help reduce this little bit of extra clearance I have between the sector and piston teeth?

I'll let someone else with more knowledge on the adjustment chime in on that question.

Todd Z.

 

[widowmaker77]

I'll let someone else with more knowledge on the adjustment chime in on that question.

Todd Z.

I gotcha. So I did hear back from blue top. They do have new sector shafts available for $175. I’m sure they’re made over seas somewhere but I’ll probably get one to ease my mind about this snapping thing.

 

[Teal68]

I've used that adjustment for years with success on manual and power steering boxes many times. I do think you could do harm if over adjusted.
Here's the way I do it:
1. I use white out make a mark across the adjuster, the jam nut, and down to the body of the box for a reference mark
2. Lift the front tires off the ground and make sure you can turn from stop to stop. This is an important step!
3. Back off the jam nut, tighten the adjuster. Some say no more than 1/8 turn at a time. Depending on how sloppy the box is I've been known to do much more initially.
4. Tighten the jam nut.
5. Now turn the wheel lock to lock. If you feel any "knotchiness" back off the adjuster until that feeling goes away. Step two was important so you don't have the stress of dry steering felt thru the wheel keeping you from feeling any "knotchiness".
6. Repeat 3 thru 5 until good!

Good idea or bad? I don't know. All I know is it has worked for me for more than 30 years without any problems.

 

[ntsqd]

The screw on top is for setting the back-lash in the gears. As I understand it the gears aren't "round", that is to say that they deliberately have a high spot on center. This is so that there is the least amount of play when going straight. In a turn there is load on the steering linkage that biases the gears in one direction or the other, so a little bit a clearance there allows the box to cycle easily while not feeling 'sloppy'. When going straight the loading alternates from one side to the other. If there is too much clearance there on center then the vehicle wanders excessively.

When the center of the gears has worn enough to create some slop in the box and then the adjuster screw is moved there is the risk of moving it so far that now the box binds up in a turn. Teal's Step 5 is addressing that. It is reasonable that the gears can be worn such that by the time the screw is adjusted so that the box doesn't bind up in turns that you can't remove the slop at the center. I suspect that this is why it's commonly said not to adjust that screw. Not because it can't be, but because by the time it is adjusted so that the box doesn't bind at either full lock that you haven't removed much if any of the slop on center.

 

[widowmaker77]

I've used that adjustment for years with success on manual and power steering boxes many times. I do think you could do harm if over adjusted.
Here's the way I do it:
1. I use white out make a mark across the adjuster, the jam nut, and down to the body of the box for a reference mark
2. Lift the front tires off the ground and make sure you can turn from stop to stop. This is an important step!
3. Back off the jam nut, tighten the adjuster. Some say no more than 1/8 turn at a time. Depending on how sloppy the box is I've been known to do much more initially.
4. Tighten the jam nut.
5. Now turn the wheel lock to lock. If you feel any "knotchiness" back off the adjuster until that feeling goes away. Step two was important so you don't have the stress of dry steering felt thru the wheel keeping you from feeling any "knotchiness".
6. Repeat 3 thru 5 until good!

Good idea or bad? I don't know. All I know is it has worked for me for more than 30 years without any problems.

The screw on top is for setting the back-lash in the gears. As I understand it the gears aren't "round", that is to say that they deliberately have a high spot on center. This is so that there is the least amount of play when going straight. In a turn there is load on the steering linkage that biases the gears in one direction or the other, so a little bit a clearance there allows the box to cycle easily while not feeling 'sloppy'. When going straight the loading alternates from one side to the other. If there is too much clearance there on center then the vehicle wanders excessively.

When the center of the gears has worn enough to create some slop in the box and then the adjuster screw is moved there is the risk of moving it so far that now the box binds up in a turn. Teal's Step 5 is addressing that. It is reasonable that the gears can be worn such that by the time the screw is adjusted so that the box doesn't bind up in turns that you can't remove the slop at the center. I suspect that this is why it's commonly said not to adjust that screw. Not because it can't be, but because by the time it is adjusted so that the box doesn't bind at either full lock that you haven't removed much if any of the slop on center.

Thanks for the feed back on this guys. I’ll try to adjust it a little to see if it corrects some of the slack with any binding issues.
Just a little more feedback on the blue top sector shafts. They are made in India. Price for shaft and Shipping to south Alabama is like $198. Not as bad as was expecting.

 

[Teal68]

10 4. And....If you don't like the results you always have the option to line your marks back up right to where it was originally.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Was the steering box centered? Typically they are only tight on center and off center there is a tiny amount of play. It is easier to machine parts that only need to be tight in the only spot that you will feel play. near lock, you will never notice a tiny amount of play while driving.

 

[widowmaker77]

Was the steering box centered? Typically they are only tight on center and off center there is a tiny amount of play. It is easier to machine parts that only need to be tight in the only spot that you will feel play. near lock, you will never notice a tiny amount of play while driving.

Yes sir, it’s definitely centered. I’ve checked that multiple times as I’ve been converting over to the duffs heim steer.

 

[jamesroney]

Yes sir, it’s definitely centered. I’ve checked that multiple times as I’ve been converting over to the duffs heim steer.

Centered on the box, or centered on the worm?

When you adjust the pre-load bolt, you need the box centered on the worm. This is often a slightly different location that centered on the box. Centering on the box is where you turn the input fully one way, count turns to the other way, divide in half...and put it exactly in the middle.

Centered on the worm is where you center the input on the box, and then tighten the preload bolt and then turn the worm a little bit to each side to find the "high spot." You can usually feel it easily by hand when you adjust it on the bench. In a perfect world, the high spot in the sector is exactly in the same place as the center of the box.

@ntsqd is generally correct about the futility of trying to adjust a steering box, and I usually recommend against touching that screw. The theory is that the factory adjusted that screw when they originally calibrated the box, and there is no way that you are going to be able to calibrate it better than the factory. So if it's out of adjustment, it's worn out and needs service. But the 4x4x2 box is a special case, because ALL 4x4x2 boxes have an alien worm nut installed during the conversion. And it is possible that the last guy didn't optimize the adjustment. So on 4x4x2 boxes, I advocate setting the load bolt on the bench prior to install.

Do not be tempted to center anything with respect to the steering wheel. There is no guarantee that the steering wheel is "timed" to be straight when the box is centered. Also do not center anything with respect to the pitman arm. Bronco pitman arms do NOT point straight when the box is centered...unless you re-indexed your pitman arm. Just put your box in the middle, and then find the high spot and mark the input shaft with a sharpie.

 

[ntsqd]

Building a 4x4x2 steering gear from donor parts might still result in a futile attempt to adjust that screw if the donor parts are too worn. Flip side is that you have to at least attempt to adjust that screw to find that out.

FWIW The Lee PS rebuilt steering gear that I put in the FSB last Saturday came paint-pen marked for center on the pitman shaft relative to the box housing, and on the input shaft relative to the box housing.
TTB FSB pitmans don't point straight forward either. No idea about the LA FSB's.

 

[widowmaker77]

Centered on the box, or centered on the worm?

When you adjust the pre-load bolt, you need the box centered on the worm. This is often a slightly different location that centered on the box. Centering on the box is where you turn the input fully one way, count turns to the other way, divide in half...and put it exactly in the middle.

Centered on the worm is where you center the input on the box, and then tighten the preload bolt and then turn the worm a little bit to each side to find the "high spot." You can usually feel it easily by hand when you adjust it on the bench. In a perfect world, the high spot in the sector is exactly in the same place as the center of the box.

@ntsqd is generally correct about the futility of trying to adjust a steering box, and I usually recommend against touching that screw. The theory is that the factory adjusted that screw when they originally calibrated the box, and there is no way that you are going to be able to calibrate it better than the factory. So if it's out of adjustment, it's worn out and needs service. But the 4x4x2 box is a special case, because ALL 4x4x2 boxes have an alien worm nut installed during the conversion. And it is possible that the last guy didn't optimize the adjustment. So on 4x4x2 boxes, I advocate setting the load bolt on the bench prior to install.

Do not be tempted to center anything with respect to the steering wheel. There is no guarantee that the steering wheel is "timed" to be straight when the box is centered. Also do not center anything with respect to the pitman arm. Bronco pitman arms do NOT point straight when the box is centered...unless you re-indexed your pitman arm. Just put your box in the middle, and then find the high spot and mark the input shaft with a sharpie.

Been out of pocket for a few days. Thanks for the detailed info. I’ll see what I can figure out this weekend. However I will say (and this may be comparing apples to oranges ) I have a original 77 box sitting around and also a 89 bronco box sitting and neither one of those boxes have this extra backlash like my 4x4x2 box does.