Mid 2020s what are we using for an ignition system these days with a carb??

[nvrstuk]

Petronix is what I would use as I've used dozens of them in the past and worked on many more decades ago.

Sorry I can't help ya on which wire you have and where it should go tho... least w/o looking it up.

MSD use is common for a blower and need it to pull timing with boost coming on OR if I was running an LS with a Ford distributor and needed an ignition for it.... seems to be two good uses for MSD but man, they aren't reliable in my book for DD for yrs...

 

[DirtDonk]

I think to move things along I’m just going to order the Pertronix. That way all I have to do is hook up 2 wires. I can’t just hook it up to the wire pictured right? I have to run a new wire from the ignition (I on solenoid) and then just ground the black to the block right.

What? Do you mean with the soon-to-be-installed Pertronix?
If that's what you're asking, then NO, you don't do it like that.
The Black wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for the negative side of the ignition coil.
The Red wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for 12v power with the key in the ON position.

The wire pictured (looks to be Red w/green?) is the current lead to the positive side of the ignition coil. Correct?
If so, then that will continue to power the coil, but NOT the Pertronix. You need a full 12v to the Ignitor, and the Red w/green wire is the business end of the resistor wire under the dash, between the ignition switch and the firewall. Outside of the firewall it's just regular wire, but will only have reduced voltage on it when the vehicle is running.
Depending on when you check, it might have 12v on it, or it might have 6v on it.
The Brown "I" wire from the starter relay is for feeding the full 12v plus a little additional current capacity to the coil ONLY when the starter is cranking. It does NOT supply power in any other condition. Once the starter stops cranking, the 12v on the "I" post goes away completely. Any measurable voltage on the Brown wire is coming from the ignition switch and will vary the same way that the Red w/green wire does.

The Ignitor instructions have always included a picture showing that it's ok to connect the Red wire from the distributor to the ignition coil's positive terminal. This feeds both the coil and the distributor. But this is INCORRECT from a Ford standpoint.
If your Ignitor is the type that requires the full 12v (and I think they all are, but not sure anymore) then you must source it from a different wire, OR use the Red w/green wire to trigger a relay in order to get a full 12v to the distributor.
Or run a new wire from the ignition switch to the Ignitor. This usually is not necessary for aftermarket harnesses, because they don't include a resistor wire.

One alternative would be to also buy a coil from Pertronix (or any other company for that matter) that is designed to work with 12v and then bypass the resistor wire completely.
If you do that, then you can follow the instructions and connect the distributor's Red wire to the ignition coil positive. Where both components receive the full 12v (approx) signal.

Paul

 

[nvrstuk]

What Paul said... Sure is great to have such knowledgeable guys here that know stock wiring colors... and of course what to do with them.

 

[bmc69]

...simply because Ford HATED anybody that worked on their vehicles. PERIOD!

That & they don't care at all about Hot Rod or aftermarket users... I mean James could list more examples than I could but there at least a dozen good examples of how they screwed ANY possible chance of interchangeability between one year & the next.


I mean just look at strg column wiring interchangeability... what a joke.

I was rooting through my Standard parts catalog (I still maintain a complete old-school catalog collection..pic) and had to chuckle again at the sheer number of EGR vlave part numbers Ford generated for such a relatively short period of time and limited number of engines.

 

[admin]

Pertronix 2 in a factory ford distributor for the win. Do not install any kind of Tachometer, and use their coil with no kind of ballast resistor or resistor wire and they last forever.

That's been my experience too with the Pertronix 2. A couple of decades without issue. (although I do have an aftermarket tach hooked up and it hasn't caused me any issues)

 

[joshua]

What? Do you mean with the soon-to-be-installed Pertronix?
If that's what you're asking, then NO, you don't do it like that.
The Black wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for the negative side of the ignition coil.
The Red wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for 12v power with the key in the ON position.

The wire pictured (looks to be Red w/green?) is the current lead to the positive side of the ignition coil. Correct?
If so, then that will continue to power the coil, but NOT the Pertronix. You need a full 12v to the Ignitor, and the Red w/green wire is the business end of the resistor wire under the dash, between the ignition switch and the firewall. Outside of the firewall it's just regular wire, but will only have reduced voltage on it when the vehicle is running.
Depending on when you check, it might have 12v on it, or it might have 6v on it.
The Brown "I" wire from the starter relay is for feeding the full 12v plus a little additional current capacity to the coil ONLY when the starter is cranking. It does NOT supply power in any other condition. Once the starter stops cranking, the 12v on the "I" post goes away completely. Any measurable voltage on the Brown wire is coming from the ignition switch and will vary the same way that the Red w/green wire does.

The Ignitor instructions have always included a picture showing that it's ok to connect the Red wire from the distributor to the ignition coil's positive terminal. This feeds both the coil and the distributor. But this is INCORRECT from a Ford standpoint.
If your Ignitor is the type that requires the full 12v (and I think they all are, but not sure anymore) then you must source it from a different wire, OR use the Red w/green wire to trigger a relay in order to get a full 12v to the distributor.
Or run a new wire from the ignition switch to the Ignitor. This usually is not necessary for aftermarket harnesses, because they don't include a resistor wire.

One alternative would be to also buy a coil from Pertronix (or any other company for that matter) that is designed to work with 12v and then bypass the resistor wire completely.
If you do that, then you can follow the instructions and connect the distributor's Red wire to the ignition coil positive. Where both components receive the full 12v (approx) signal.

Paul

Oops when I built my run stand I thought I had run it off that (I) But it’s been 4 yrs since I did that. I know I built it like a simple ignition so I must have run a wire from the key on that stand.

 

[DirtDonk]

…and then just ground the black to the block right.

Just circling back a bit. This is just a general, but semi-universal truth with Broncos.
Never, and I mean NEVER(!) ground a black wire on a Bronco!
At least not until you know for 100% fact that it is a ground wire.

First of all, from the factory, there are far too many black wires, with and without stripes, that are full power +12 V wires.
Very few actual grounds, and not all of them are perfectly black.
Then when you add 50 years of previous Owner modifications, well, you get my drift.

During most wiring work on a Bronco, especially under the hood, you rarely run across a factory ground.
In fact, there are only four that I can think of off the top of my head. And one of them is the main battery cable.
So always keep that in mind

 

[jamesroney]

What? Do you mean with the soon-to-be-installed Pertronix?
If that's what you're asking, then NO, you don't do it like that.
The Black wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for the negative side of the ignition coil.
The Red wire from the Pertronix Ignitor is for 12v power with the key in the ON position.

The wire pictured (looks to be Red w/green?) is the current lead to the positive side of the ignition coil. Correct?
If so, then that will continue to power the coil, but NOT the Pertronix. You need a full 12v to the Ignitor, and the Red w/green wire is the business end of the resistor wire under the dash, between the ignition switch and the firewall. Outside of the firewall it's just regular wire, but will only have reduced voltage on it when the vehicle is running.
Depending on when you check, it might have 12v on it, or it might have 6v on it.
The Brown "I" wire from the starter relay is for feeding the full 12v plus a little additional current capacity to the coil ONLY when the starter is cranking. It does NOT supply power in any other condition. Once the starter stops cranking, the 12v on the "I" post goes away completely. Any measurable voltage on the Brown wire is coming from the ignition switch and will vary the same way that the Red w/green wire does.

The Ignitor instructions have always included a picture showing that it's ok to connect the Red wire from the distributor to the ignition coil's positive terminal. This feeds both the coil and the distributor. But this is INCORRECT from a Ford standpoint.
If your Ignitor is the type that requires the full 12v (and I think they all are, but not sure anymore) then you must source it from a different wire, OR use the Red w/green wire to trigger a relay in order to get a full 12v to the distributor.
Or run a new wire from the ignition switch to the Ignitor. This usually is not necessary for aftermarket harnesses, because they don't include a resistor wire.

One alternative would be to also buy a coil from Pertronix (or any other company for that matter) that is designed to work with 12v and then bypass the resistor wire completely.

Paul

Hey Paul,

I'm going to say exactly the same thing, but it a slightly different way. I don't know if it will help @joshua but if someone else stumble onto this thread, it might help them.

The standard ignition coil on a Ford is an 8 Volt coil. If the coil says "12V with External Resistor" then it is an 8V coil. An 8 Volt coil is designed to operate at 8 volts. That factory Ford coil with the yellow top is an 8 volt coil.

The resistor wire runs from the ignition switch to the coil. It is pink, and it changes color in the harness. It is designed to reduce the battery voltage from 12V to 8V. When the engine is running, battery voltage is LOWERED from 12V to 8V.

When the engine is CRANKING, the heavy current load from the starting motor consumes power. When the battery is weak, and old, and cold, and after a long crank...the battery voltage reduce to about 8 Volts. During CRANK, you want the FULL 8V available to the coil. If you run the voltage thru the resistor, it further lowers the voltage to below 5V, and it won't fire. So during crank, the ballast resistor is bypassed, and full battery voltage is routed to the coil on the Ignition Bypass Terminal on the starter relay. This ensures that the full 8V is available during crank. Once the engine starts, and the key is released...the battery voltage climbs back up to 12V, and the power is routed thru the resistor to ensure that 8V is applied to the coil.

Modern batteries are vastly better than the batteries of the 50's, and modern starters are vastly more efficient, and modern coils are vastly more capable. So it is not at all unusual to run a 12V coil if you have modern electrical components. A modern 12V coil will still fire at 8V, and is perfectly happy to run anywhere in between. Which is why I posted that you want to run a 12V Pertronix coil, with their Pertronix 2 ignitor with a full 12V and no resistor wire.

But I post, and then I find myself posting the exact same info differently. And then everybody votes, and after we all reach consensus, we seem to be able to move forward. So I'm checking out for a while. (Matthew 7:6)

And yeah, Black wires, (or Black / Yellow or Black / Red on a Ford doesn't mean ground. And the (-) terminal on a coil doesn't mean ground either.

 

[73azbronco]

Ford Duraspark (you can use a small cap if you like, even a male small cap using off the shelf parts.
Magnetic trigger is completely happy triggering a GM HEI module you can mount on an inner fender, just be sure to get the heat sink right.
Use that to fire a Ford E-core coil (used in EEC-IV appications)
Aftermarket recurve kits exist to make it a performance distributor if you like.
All off the shelf parts. Any parts store can get you anything to fix it. Best of the junkyard parts.

Boom, this.

Full disclosure, I sent my dizzy to custom dizzy place in socal, forget the name, they removed guts of duraspark, installed dodge mid 90's parts, which I can't tell apart from ford, and works great. Why swap out parts? He said the dodge parts for that year are more reliable. 15 years later maybe he was right.

 

[ntsqd]

^^^ Interesting. In my spare time I want to dig into this a bit. Most of the Mopar pick-ups and reluctors that I've worked with were terrible. Probably reliable, but terrible. This sounds like Mopar made a change.

FWIW MSD uses D-S II pick-ups and reluctors in all of their distributors. Or at least parts that look like D-S II parts.....

 

[joshua]

^^^ Interesting. In my spare time I want to dig into this a bit. Most of the Mopar pick-ups and reluctors that I've worked with were terrible. Probably reliable, but terrible. This sounds like Mopar made a change.

FWIW MSD uses D-S II pick-ups and reluctors in all of their distributors. Or at least parts that look like D-S II parts.....

Is it worth the extra 100 bucks for the igniter 3 vs igniter 2? Especially in the reliability department?


If you want to go to the links apparently you have to copy and paste. Because clicking on it takes you to something else.


https://a.co/d/02zxzZr8

https://a.co/d/05ct2DMH

 

[ntsqd]

If you're asking me, I don't know anything about any of them.

 

[joshua]

If you're asking me, I don't know anything about any of them.

Oops that was supposed to be a general reply lol. Thanks for letting know

 

[nvrstuk]

Wow, dead silence... lol I'm with TS... can't help ya there. Last one I worked on was in half of a 460 Ford engine in a marine application...

4 banger in a boat, with Petronix and Q-jet... love those qjets. Thing ran like a top... even after the fire under the hatch with me 75ft behind sitting in the water waiting to yell... "HIT IT"

 

[Broncobowsher]

My only running carburated V8 (boat as well) has a hybrid ignition. Still has points for the trigger, but not the load of actually powering the coil. Condenser removed so just the points. That feeds the remote TFI module on a factory heat sink. That will throw a mighty spark out of the TFI matched E-core coil.

Great way to get electronic ignition levels of spark out of an engine that can't easily get away from breaker points. Also useful for things like outboards, motorcycles, etc.

 

[DirtDonk]

So the load becomes so small that you don’t even need a condenser? That’s pretty slick.
But is the reason for getting rid of it completely something other than their modern piss-poor reliability?

 

[nvrstuk]

My only running carburated V8 (boat as well) has a hybrid ignition. Still has points for the trigger, but not the load of actually powering the coil. Condenser removed so just the points. That feeds the remote TFI module on a factory heat sink. That will throw a mighty spark out of the TFI matched E-core coil.

Great way to get electronic ignition levels of spark out of an engine that can't easily get away from breaker points. Also useful for things like outboards, motorcycles, etc.

Did something similar to a little Datsun p/u for a friend's daughter last winter. Worked ridiculously good!

 

[Broncobowsher]

So the load becomes so small that you don’t even need a condenser? That’s pretty slick.
But is the reason for getting rid of it completely something other than their modern piss-poor reliability?

It's really no load. It just makes a digital signal mechanically instead of electronically. The condenser would just mess up the signal generated. The point only have mechanical wear, no electrical wear. No pitting, burning, arcing, ect.

 

[ntsqd]

Rubbing block wear would be the only downside. Eventually finding new points may become impossible, but we may not care by then. Relaxing the point spring would reduce the wear, but it would also reduce the higher RPM tracking, and high RPM random ignition events should be avoided at all costs. Just don't go there, deal with the wear.

I'm spoiled in that I have a surface grinder and a Spindex, so I can install an inductive pick-up in almost anything. Most of the time that's more than good enough. My first such project was to put the reluctor out of a Subaru in an ACVW's 009 distributor and then my cherished 010. Followed by putting a D-S II reluctor & pick-up assembly in an I-H specific Prestolite distributor and converting a iron body points SBC/BBC distributor to an HEI pick-up assembly for use as the "Golden Unit" distributor on an engine dyno.
I've used those to trigger an OEM Toyota electronic ignition, HEI based electronic ignitions, D-S II electronic ignitions, and a couple MSD 6A & 6OR electronic ignitions.

Being able to do that kind of warps my sense of what is a difficult project and what isn't. To me that isn't difficult, just time consuming.

 

[DirtDonk]

The closest I ever got to what you's guys are describing, was my first foray into electronicals, and connecting my Jacob's box to my points distributor.
Worked damn fine too, with zero issues. Never thought of removing the condenser however. Luckily, didn't need to either.

I'm a big fan of all this playing around with different combos. Even if I don't ever have a chance to try it myself, this TFI/points combo, or a DS-II with GM HEI module combo, are very satisfying in knowing that they work. Great workarounds.

Paul