Timing issues

[Mikes79Bronco]

Having some issues setting timing, hopefully its something silly that I'm overlooking due to my lack of experience with distributors. Its not my first time but I've only done it a handful of times.

Its a new stock engine, with all news parts. I have this balancer from summit and timing cover / pointer combo from toms with the point at the ~2 o'clock position.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-163289

None of the three sets of marks line up with the pointer while at TDC, but there is a single line right at TDC. After reading some of the reviews on that balancer it looks like that's a common complaint, not sure why there is one line and no degree markings? So I figured no big deal I'll just put some timing tape on it at that mark, I put the tape on spun it to 10* BTDC and set the distributor with cylinder 1 lined up there. Go to start it and it wont start and really struggling. I spin the distributor a bit and get it to run, while idling I shoot it with the timing light and its not even hitting on the tape. So I just move it around until its idling good and hit it with the light again. This time its even further off the tape, to the ATDC side.

It runs well and has good throttle response. All settings done with he vacuum advance disconnected. At higher RPMs it is advancing the timing like expected with the vacuum hooked up. It really feels like the timing is correct but the marks are way off, but I don't understand how that would be possible since I set the tape at TDC? I checked to make sure I had TDC multiple times, cylinder 1, compression stroke, piston at top. Timing light set to 0* for all readings. It seems like I'm hooked to the wrong plug wire or something and just firing the light at the wrong time but I've verified that I'm on the correct wire.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[gr8scott]

Sounds like you might be timed to #5 (or #8, depending on which way you turned it to make it run). Put your light on #5 wire and see what it reads.

At #1 TDC the crank's keyway should be pointed straight up. To verify its position you'd need to remove the crank pulley and the harmonic balancer's
bolt and big washer.

You may end up getting a new balancer with proper timing marks. I'm using this one from WH without any issues.

Pro Street Harmonic Damper, 28 or 50 oz, SBF V8, 66-77 Bronco

Check out the deal on Pro Street Harmonic Damper, 28 or 50 oz, SBF V8, 66-77 Bronco at WILD HORSES 4X4

www.wildhorses4x4.com

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

Turns out I probed TDC wrong. I was using a zip tie down in the cylinder to feel the piston height. It must have been getting wedged against the cylinder wall or something, while using the zip tie it always stops at the same point (which also happens to line up with a line on the balancer which is why I didn't question it). I switched to a small allen key and it turns out my TDC does line up with a set of markings on the balancer. No idea what that other line on the balancer is for.

Running good now, but I think my mechanical advance is sticking. Sometimes it doesn't seem to advance while watching it with the light. Also feels sluggish under 3k while driving half the time. So I think it may be working properly sometimes and not others?

 

[DirtDonk]

That’s not uncommon with the mechanical advance on an old distributor.
Things get sticky and worn out and bind.
Sometimes a quick cleaning and lube will fix that. Other times it needs replacement or rebuilding because parts are too far worn.
How many miles on this one? You said everything is new. Does that include the distributor? If so, what model and brand is it?

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

That’s not uncommon with the mechanical advance on an old distributor.
Things get sticky and worn out and bind.
Sometimes a quick cleaning and lube will fix that. Other times it needs replacement or rebuilding because parts are too far worn.
How many miles on this one? You said everything is new. Does that include the distributor? If so, what model and brand is it?

Hoping to have time to take it apart to tonight and check it out. The distributor was new last year but its a cheap no name amazon HEI distributor. Might be time for something nicer.

 

[Johnnyb]

This can be useful: COMP Cams 4795 Top Dead Center Stop, 14mm Bolt-Style https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CIOA0Q/?tag=classicbroncos-20

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

This can be useful: COMP Cams 4795 Top Dead Center Stop, 14mm Bolt-Style https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CIOA0Q/?tag=classicbroncos-20

I probably should order one just to have on hand for future use, I've always just stuck something down in the cylinder to feel for TDC. But obviously I messed that up multiple times this go around

I did take it apart and it was sticky. Got it lubed up and working better, once it was working I had way to much total timing though. Coming in around 46*. Got the vacuum advance adjusted down and I'm at 15* initial and 36* total right now. It runs pretty good and better than before but it seems a little rough in lower RPM high load scenarios.

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

I did take it apart and it was sticky. Got it lubed up and working better, once it was working I had way to much total timing though. Coming in around 46*. Got the vacuum advance adjusted down and I'm at 15* initial and 36* total right now. It runs pretty good and better than before but it seems a little rough in lower RPM high load scenarios.

I've been playing with it more, while watching the timing and giving it throttle it tends to go back retarded at first then hang out around 15* for awhile then start climbing but it doesn't climb until 2,000-2,500 with the vacuum disconnected. With it connected it doesn't seem to retard at all and climbs a bit quicker.

I think my mechanical still isn't working correctly, its coming in too late? And the retarding thing the only thing that that can be is shaft play and it walking up the gear right?

I know I can get springs & weights and mess with the curve but I'm considering just replacing it with something nicer if I'm gonna start messing with it. Another HEI unit would be nice because I just did all new wiring for an HEI style distributor but all of the HEI units look identical and I'm concerned they are all the same quality just at vastly different price points? I'm also consider going with something like the MSD ready to run distributors. Any recommendations?

 

[JSBX]

I run a DUI on mine. Been running it for 15 years with no problems.

 

[Johnnyb]

I'll tell you an embarrassing story, when I was putting the harmonic balancer on my 5.0 I was working with a buddy and somehow we TDC'd off of hole number two!
That's teamwork for you, I'm lying under the front end trying to figure out why the timing mark is so far off.
A Whistler is also useful because you want to make sure that you're on the compression stroke as well, otherwise you might get it 180° off.
Anyway, once we whistled the correct hole and then use the TDC indicator, it turned out the harmonic balancer was exactly correct.

-JB

 

[Johnnyb]

I run a DUI on mine. Been running it for 15 years with no problems.

I had a buddy run a couple of DUIs in his Bronco, but he eventually lost his license and had to sell it to pay for the lawyers.
I assume that's not the kind of DUI you're talking about.

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

I run a DUI on mine. Been running it for 15 years with no problems.

I'll take a look at them as well.

I'll tell you an embarrassing story, when I was putting the harmonic balancer on my 5.0 I was working with a buddy and somehow we TDC'd off of hole number two!
That's teamwork for you, I'm lying under the front end trying to figure out why the timing mark is so far off.
A Whistler is also useful because you want to make sure that you're on the compression stroke as well, otherwise you might get it 180° off.
Anyway, once we whistled the correct hole and then use the TDC indicator, it turned out the harmonic balancer was exactly correct.

-JB

That's a good one! I've never used a whistler or a piston stop just stick my finger over the whole and wait for compression stroke then feel the top of the piston with something.

This post has been a little embarrassing, I considered deleting the whole thread because I thought what on earth is this contributing to anyone other than making me look like a fool?
Then I thought you know what maybe this thread will help someone else in some way in the future. Maybe it'll make some one think "damn maybe I should go check my own work for the 4th time" because that's what it took for me to realize my mistake

I had a buddy run a couple of DUIs in his Bronco, but he eventually lost his license and had to sell it to pay for the lawyers.
I assume that's not the kind of DUI you're talking about.

 

[Mikes79Bronco]

Yet another update. I pulled the distributor out and found that the shaft had around 1/4" of end play which is obviously an insane amount. Which explains why my timing was retarding while accelerating. Also found that with all of that end play the rotor was hitting the top of some screws which explains why it wasn't advancing correctly. I'm not sure if a retainer or something broke in there and created that much play or its just always had that much play.

So I had another old HEI distributor on the shelf that I was able to use to frankenstein parts together and get one good one, or mostly good anyway. Its running much better now, I think it still needs some tweaking its still kind of stumbling around 1,800-2,000. Also cant get this one to stop putting in too much with the vacuum advance, I've got the adjustment out all the way and it will still shoot up to 42/44ish (the marks stop at 40). But I'm also not hearing any pinging so should I be worried about?