The rules with frame VIN numbers

[eou_edu]

Let's talk about frame VIN rules. Although how much you can get away with varies state to state VIN number rules are federal laws. I'm NOT suggesting anybody do anything illegal. Instead I'm gathering information on what is ok and what is not and starting a discussion that.

I have a 71 bronco. The frame VIN is there but it's pretty hard to read and the frame is destroyed anyway. About half of it is either rotted through or you can poke it through with a screwdriver. The glovebox VIN is there and in my state that is all you need for a title which I have. But of course I'd like to have both VINs as it will help with resale someday down the road. So what's my best course of action to assure I have a legable vin number on my frame?

I believe I read on a previous forum it's illegal to cut out a section of the frame and weld the section with the old VIN in place. Makes sense, could spell lots of defrauding the system even when your intention is good. But then you get into a tough grey area on the difference between "repairing" and replacing." Is there actually law that spells out the difference between repair and replace? Like if you repair 51% of the frame it's considered a new frame? Is it worth any attempt to fix it anyway if I already have a title and glovebox VIN? Is there another hidden secret location for a VIN number on the frame inside a frame rail besides the well know spot just behind the passenger front wheel?

I'm going to assume stamping new numbers on a new frame would be completely illegal? I'm guessing that probably means restamping a VIN that is already there to reinforce numbers that are already there is illegal as well? Anybody know what size stamps ford used anyway? I have stamped a VIN number once before on an old jeep under the advice of the state police that had to do a VIN inspection on it. When they couldn't find it they send me a state issued VIN metal sticker like they put on the trailers. Then they suggest I stamp it in place myself in the same number at the spot they are usually found on the jeeps. But this was after they determined the frame had no readable VIN number.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I'm sure someone knows what the Bronco restoration shops are doing when they buy a rust pile with a VIN and put an aftermarket frame under it.

 

[Brush Hog]

Since a vin is recorded with DMV as long as you have the title and all the vin tags I do not know why restamping the frame with the vin you “own” would be illegal. It would only be a problem if you don’t have the title. Once the title is in your possession it it’s yours. That is why never buy a vehicle that doesn’t have a title/pink slip. I believe people will buy rusted out frames that have a title and vin and use that to re title a new chassis (but I’m not positive I remember that correctly).

 

[serial car restorer]

The glovebox tag is not a legal VIN per the Feds, as it is not permanently attached to the vehicle. While some states will go with it, others will not. But most, maybe all states have a method to title a vehicle with a replacement frame. Here in OR I believe you need to have title and old frame, plus paper docs from the new frame manufacturer. Once you show all that to DMV they can/will issue a new state-issued VIN and title. Depending on your states laws it may or may not be flagged as 'Reconstructed' or sometimes even as a 'Kit car'.

I believe this is the only legal method to title a replacement frame, although some states are probably more casual about it than others.

 

[jamesroney]

Let's talk about frame VIN rules. Although how much you can get away with varies state to state VIN number rules are federal laws. I'm NOT suggesting anybody do anything illegal. Instead I'm gathering information on what is ok and what is not and starting a discussion that.

I have a 71 bronco. The frame VIN is there but it's pretty hard to read and the frame is destroyed anyway. About half of it is either rotted through or you can poke it through with a screwdriver. The glovebox VIN is there and in my state that is all you need for a title which I have. But of course I'd like to have both VINs as it will help with resale someday down the road. So what's my best course of action to assure I have a legable vin number on my frame?

I believe I read on a previous forum it's illegal to cut out a section of the frame and weld the section with the old VIN in place. Makes sense, could spell lots of defrauding the system even when your intention is good. But then you get into a tough grey area on the difference between "repairing" and replacing." Is there actually law that spells out the difference between repair and replace? Like if you repair 51% of the frame it's considered a new frame? Is it worth any attempt to fix it anyway if I already have a title and glovebox VIN? Is there another hidden secret location for a VIN number on the frame inside a frame rail besides the well know spot just behind the passenger front wheel?

I'm going to assume stamping new numbers on a new frame would be completely illegal? I'm guessing that probably means restamping a VIN that is already there to reinforce numbers that are already there is illegal as well? Anybody know what size stamps ford used anyway? I have stamped a VIN number once before on an old jeep under the advice of the state police that had to do a VIN inspection on it. When they couldn't find it they send me a state issued VIN metal sticker like they put on the trailers. Then they suggest I stamp it in place myself in the same number at the spot they are usually found on the jeeps. But this was after they determined the frame had no readable VIN number.

Why don't you START by reading the federal law? 18-USC-511(a) -altering a VIN,
and then read 18-USC-511(b)(2)(B). - exceptions to altering a VIN.

Then you will understand why 99% of the crap you read on the internet is false, fake, or misinformation.

Every assumption that you posted above is incorrect. (Keep in mind that a statement that is 99% true, and 1% false is defined as "false.")

The worst-case-scenario that always works and never fails is the assigned VIN process by @serial car restorer. Of course it meets zero of your requirements, and totally devalues the pedigree.

I'm not going to post how to do what you want to do on a public forum. But suffice it to say that it can, has, and will continue to be possible.

 

[eou_edu]

Why don't you START by reading the federal law? 18-USC-511(a) -altering a VIN,
and then read 18-USC-511(b)(2)(B). - exceptions to altering a VIN.

Then you will understand why 99% of the crap you read on the internet is false, fake, or misinformation.

Every assumption that you posted above is incorrect. (Keep in mind that a statement that is 99% true, and 1% false is defined as "false.")

The worst-case-scenario that always works and never fails is the assigned VIN process by @serial car restorer. Of course it meets zero of your requirements, and totally devalues the pedigree.

I'm not going to post how to do what you want to do on a public forum. But suffice it to say that it can, has, and will continue to be possible.

Thanks for the link on the law. I'll cut and paste what I found for other people to see. Subsection B and C is what applies here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you CAN legally replace a frame and restamp the VIN. Anybody know what size stamps bronco's have?

(1)
Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A)
a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B)
a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)
a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i)
the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii)
applicable State or local law; or
(iii)
regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

 

[Slowleak]

The VIN is also stamped further back on the passenger rail. It’s in two locations….

 

[serial car restorer]

Two thoughts:

(B)
a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)
a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and

If you decide to pursue stamping your current VIN on a replacement frame under these clauses, I'd want to verify that your state's DMV agrees on the legality of this action, prior to starting. You really don't want to get into an argument over what is legal and not after the fact. Get it in writing if you can.

...and totally devalues the pedigree.

This is true, and even if all parties agree to the process, the re-stamped VIN on a new frame WILL be obvious to those who know. Car manufacturers use rather distinctive dies for VIN stamps exactly for this reason. People in the know will spot things like wrong font, different spacing, different stars, and even how deep the stampings are. Even if you have all your ducks in a row, the non-original VIN will give some people pause when you try to sell someday.

 

[Madgyver]

if I buy a new aftermarket frame that some vendors sell, would they come with a legal title for that particular frame or just a bill of sale?

 

[toddz69]

I'm not going to post how to do what you want to do on a public forum. But suffice it to say that it can, has, and will continue to be possible.

This is high on my list of campfire discussion topics to discuss with you on a camping trip with @lars .

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

if I buy a new aftermarket frame that some vendors sell, would they come with a legal title for that particular frame or just a bill of sale?

No. They are not selling a "vehicle" so it does not come with a title.

If you buy that same aftermarket frame installed into a vehicle, as provided by some vendors...it will miraculously come with a legal title for that particular vehicle, which of course includes a frame.

And this is why an Early Bronco frame, glovebox, and title have become so valuable.

Keep in mind that there are two things in play.
1. Ensure that my Bronco has a good VIN and a clean title.
2. Ensure that no other Bronco has my VIN on it.

 

[jamesroney]

Thanks for the link on the law. I'll cut and paste what I found for other people to see. Subsection B and C is what applies here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you CAN legally replace a frame and restamp the VIN. Anybody know what size stamps bronco's have?

(1)
Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A)
a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B)
a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)
a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i)
the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii)
applicable State or local law; or
(iii)
regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

Did you really think I couldn't post the statute?

Now that you've done it...be VERY careful about what you post going forward. The conspiracy to commit crime is much worse than the actual violation of the statute. Fortunately, it's very difficult to prove the conspiracy. Unless you POST it online!

 

[jamesroney]

This is high on my list of campfire discussion topics to discuss with you on a camping trip with @lars .

Todd Z.

Sounds great to me! I'm around.

 

[eou_edu]

Did you really think I couldn't post the statute?

Now that you've done it...be VERY careful about what you post going forward. The conspiracy to commit crime is much worse than the actual violation of the statute. Fortunately, it's very difficult to prove the conspiracy. Unless you POST it online!

I don't have anything to hide. According to the law it's ok if you are reparing the vehicle.

 

[serial car restorer]

According to the law it's ok if you are reparing the vehicle.

That's your interpretation. I'd still recommend clearing it with your local agency that actually issues titles prior to proceeding.

 

[jamesroney]

I don't have anything to hide. According to the law it's ok if you are reparing the vehicle.

Yes, that's EXACTLY why I pointed you to the statute. (and it is not ALWAYS ok...)

Go do what you need to do...and don't ask for permission from anyone.

 

[serial car restorer]

The glovebox VIN is there and in my state that is all you need for a title which I have. But of course I'd like to have both VINs as it will help with resale someday down the road.

On this topic, here in Oregon a Bronco with only a glovebox tag that matches an out-of-state title will NOT pass VIN inspection. If no frame VIN is found, it will have to have a national VIN search and will end up with an assigned VIN. As I said above, the glovebox tag is not a legal VIN plate, and some states appear to know this. Neither is the compliance sticker used on later models. The legal VINs must not be easily removable. So when I am looking at a purchase, especially out-of-state, the title with matching frame-stamped VIN is my strong preference, with a title and state-assigned VIN as my only other choice. If a vehicle doesn't fall into one category or the other, I walk away.

 

[ksagis]

This is high on my list of campfire discussion topics to discuss with you on a camping trip with @lars .

Todd Z.

Now that sounds like one heck of a camping trip!

 

[eou_edu]

On this topic, here in Oregon a Bronco with only a glovebox tag that matches an out-of-state title will NOT pass VIN inspection. If no frame VIN is found, it will have to have a national VIN search and will end up with an assigned VIN. As I said above, the glovebox tag is not a legal VIN plate, and some states appear to know this. Neither is the compliance sticker used on later models. The legal VINs must not be easily removable. So when I am looking at a purchase, especially out-of-state, the title with matching frame-stamped VIN is my strong preference, with a title and state-assigned VIN as my only other choice. If a vehicle doesn't fall into one category or the other, I walk away.

I'm in Oregon as well and got a title from out of state with just the glovebox VIN. But I think that all depends on who's working at the DMV that day. Typically I get a number, wait for someone else, to take a number, then get another number. This gives some options how smoothly it will go. The kid that's worked there a few months rarely knows or gives a shit. The woman that's worked there 20 years will never be told how to do is the one I like to pass up. I got in an arguement once with a DMV vet that insisted British columbia was not a "state" in canada but instead a city.

 

[jamesroney]

On this topic, here in Oregon a Bronco with only a glovebox tag that matches an out-of-state title will NOT pass VIN inspection. If no frame VIN is found, it will have to have a national VIN search and will end up with an assigned VIN. As I said above, the glovebox tag is not a legal VIN plate, and some states appear to know this. Neither is the compliance sticker used on later models. The legal VINs must not be easily removable. So when I am looking at a purchase, especially out-of-state, the title with matching frame-stamped VIN is my strong preference, with a title and state-assigned VIN as my only other choice. If a vehicle doesn't fall into one category or the other, I walk away.

Since you are from Oregon, I am going to cut you some slack...

But the notion that the legal VIN must not be easily removable is a an interesting statement. And by interesting, I mean wrong. And by wrong, I mean false. Once you realize that your statement is false, then you must conclude that at least one of your presumptions is false.

But clearly you have no intent to deceive...so it is not a lie. (unless your name is Trump...)

Consider this example: A 1952 Willys Jeep has a stamped metal plate, attached with screws, as the only unique identifier on the vehicle. It is vastly easier to remove than the riveted warranty data plate affixed with rivets on the kick panel of a 1966 Bronco. (which is NOT easily removable, and also not a legal VIN plate.)

Regardless of that, I appreciate your attitude, and preferences regarding VIN's. I think you speak for a lot of people, and that means that you represent a significant portion of the market.

But now the conversation devolves into markets, values, and opinions. Which has little to do with laws, procedures, and customs. I don't want the OP to end up asking a shop to do an activity that could be unlawful and de-value his Bronco. I also don't want the OP to end up remanded to Law Enforcement and get his vehicle impounded...which could also de-value his Bronco.