The rules with frame VIN numbers

[eou_edu]

Let's talk about frame VIN rules. Although how much you can get away with varies state to state VIN number rules are federal laws. I'm NOT suggesting anybody do anything illegal. Instead I'm gathering information on what is ok and what is not and starting a discussion that.

I have a 71 bronco. The frame VIN is there but it's pretty hard to read and the frame is destroyed anyway. About half of it is either rotted through or you can poke it through with a screwdriver. The glovebox VIN is there and in my state that is all you need for a title which I have. But of course I'd like to have both VINs as it will help with resale someday down the road. So what's my best course of action to assure I have a legable vin number on my frame?

I believe I read on a previous forum it's illegal to cut out a section of the frame and weld the section with the old VIN in place. Makes sense, could spell lots of defrauding the system even when your intention is good. But then you get into a tough grey area on the difference between "repairing" and replacing." Is there actually law that spells out the difference between repair and replace? Like if you repair 51% of the frame it's considered a new frame? Is it worth any attempt to fix it anyway if I already have a title and glovebox VIN? Is there another hidden secret location for a VIN number on the frame inside a frame rail besides the well know spot just behind the passenger front wheel?

I'm going to assume stamping new numbers on a new frame would be completely illegal? I'm guessing that probably means restamping a VIN that is already there to reinforce numbers that are already there is illegal as well? Anybody know what size stamps ford used anyway? I have stamped a VIN number once before on an old jeep under the advice of the state police that had to do a VIN inspection on it. When they couldn't find it they send me a state issued VIN metal sticker like they put on the trailers. Then they suggest I stamp it in place myself in the same number at the spot they are usually found on the jeeps. But this was after they determined the frame had no readable VIN number.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I'm sure someone knows what the Bronco restoration shops are doing when they buy a rust pile with a VIN and put an aftermarket frame under it.

 

[Brush Hog]

Since a vin is recorded with DMV as long as you have the title and all the vin tags I do not know why restamping the frame with the vin you “own” would be illegal. It would only be a problem if you don’t have the title. Once the title is in your possession it it’s yours. That is why never buy a vehicle that doesn’t have a title/pink slip. I believe people will buy rusted out frames that have a title and vin and use that to re title a new chassis (but I’m not positive I remember that correctly).

 

[serial car restorer]

The glovebox tag is not a legal VIN per the Feds, as it is not permanently attached to the vehicle. While some states will go with it, others will not. But most, maybe all states have a method to title a vehicle with a replacement frame. Here in OR I believe you need to have title and old frame, plus paper docs from the new frame manufacturer. Once you show all that to DMV they can/will issue a new state-issued VIN and title. Depending on your states laws it may or may not be flagged as 'Reconstructed' or sometimes even as a 'Kit car'.

I believe this is the only legal method to title a replacement frame, although some states are probably more casual about it than others.

 

[eou_edu]

Why don't you START by reading the federal law? 18-USC-511(a) -altering a VIN,
and then read 18-USC-511(b)(2)(B). - exceptions to altering a VIN.

Then you will understand why 99% of the crap you read on the internet is false, fake, or misinformation.

Every assumption that you posted above is incorrect. (Keep in mind that a statement that is 99% true, and 1% false is defined as "false.")

The worst-case-scenario that always works and never fails is the assigned VIN process by @serial car restorer. Of course it meets zero of your requirements, and totally devalues the pedigree.

I'm not going to post how to do what you want to do on a public forum. But suffice it to say that it can, has, and will continue to be possible.

Thanks for the link on the law. I'll cut and paste what I found for other people to see. Subsection B and C is what applies here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you CAN legally replace a frame and restamp the VIN. Anybody know what size stamps bronco's have?

(1)
Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A)
a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B)
a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)
a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i)
the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii)
applicable State or local law; or
(iii)
regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

 

[Slowleak]

The VIN is also stamped further back on the passenger rail. It’s in two locations….

 

[serial car restorer]

Two thoughts:

(B)
a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)
a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and

If you decide to pursue stamping your current VIN on a replacement frame under these clauses, I'd want to verify that your state's DMV agrees on the legality of this action, prior to starting. You really don't want to get into an argument over what is legal and not after the fact. Get it in writing if you can.

...and totally devalues the pedigree.

This is true, and even if all parties agree to the process, the re-stamped VIN on a new frame WILL be obvious to those who know. Car manufacturers use rather distinctive dies for VIN stamps exactly for this reason. People in the know will spot things like wrong font, different spacing, different stars, and even how deep the stampings are. Even if you have all your ducks in a row, the non-original VIN will give some people pause when you try to sell someday.

 

[Madgyver]

if I buy a new aftermarket frame that some vendors sell, would they come with a legal title for that particular frame or just a bill of sale?

 

[toddz69]

I'm not going to post how to do what you want to do on a public forum. But suffice it to say that it can, has, and will continue to be possible.

This is high on my list of campfire discussion topics to discuss with you on a camping trip with @lars .

Todd Z.

 

[eou_edu]

Did you really think I couldn't post the statute?

Now that you've done it...be VERY careful about what you post going forward. The conspiracy to commit crime is much worse than the actual violation of the statute. Fortunately, it's very difficult to prove the conspiracy. Unless you POST it online!

I don't have anything to hide. According to the law it's ok if you are reparing the vehicle.

 

[serial car restorer]

According to the law it's ok if you are reparing the vehicle.

That's your interpretation. I'd still recommend clearing it with your local agency that actually issues titles prior to proceeding.

 

[serial car restorer]

The glovebox VIN is there and in my state that is all you need for a title which I have. But of course I'd like to have both VINs as it will help with resale someday down the road.

On this topic, here in Oregon a Bronco with only a glovebox tag that matches an out-of-state title will NOT pass VIN inspection. If no frame VIN is found, it will have to have a national VIN search and will end up with an assigned VIN. As I said above, the glovebox tag is not a legal VIN plate, and some states appear to know this. Neither is the compliance sticker used on later models. The legal VINs must not be easily removable. So when I am looking at a purchase, especially out-of-state, the title with matching frame-stamped VIN is my strong preference, with a title and state-assigned VIN as my only other choice. If a vehicle doesn't fall into one category or the other, I walk away.

 

[ksagis]

This is high on my list of campfire discussion topics to discuss with you on a camping trip with @lars .

Todd Z.

Now that sounds like one heck of a camping trip!

 

[eou_edu]

On this topic, here in Oregon a Bronco with only a glovebox tag that matches an out-of-state title will NOT pass VIN inspection. If no frame VIN is found, it will have to have a national VIN search and will end up with an assigned VIN. As I said above, the glovebox tag is not a legal VIN plate, and some states appear to know this. Neither is the compliance sticker used on later models. The legal VINs must not be easily removable. So when I am looking at a purchase, especially out-of-state, the title with matching frame-stamped VIN is my strong preference, with a title and state-assigned VIN as my only other choice. If a vehicle doesn't fall into one category or the other, I walk away.

I'm in Oregon as well and got a title from out of state with just the glovebox VIN. But I think that all depends on who's working at the DMV that day. Typically I get a number, wait for someone else, to take a number, then get another number. This gives some options how smoothly it will go. The kid that's worked there a few months rarely knows or gives a shit. The woman that's worked there 20 years will never be told how to do is the one I like to pass up. I got in an arguement once with a DMV vet that insisted British columbia was not a "state" in canada but instead a city.

 

[serial car restorer]

Consider this example: A 1952 Willys Jeep has a stamped metal plate, attached with screws, as the only unique identifier on the vehicle. It is vastly easier to remove than the riveted warranty data plate affixed with rivets on the kick panel of a 1966 Bronco. (which is NOT easily removable, and also not a legal VIN plate.)

Regardless of that, I appreciate your attitude, and preferences regarding VIN's. I think you speak for a lot of people, and that means that you represent a significant portion of the market.

Well, you are correct about chassis numbers in the old days (before there was a legal definition of VIN). I really wasn't thinking about going that far back.

But I think that all depends on who's working at the DMV that day.

True, but that could be a problem for future sale of the vehicle. If the young kid gives you a title for a vehicle that lacks a true, legal VIN (such as based solely on the glovebox tag) it may be impossible for a future buyer to title it if a VIN inspection by a more knowledgeable agent won't approve it.

Far simpler to not try to get lucky, or skirt the rules, but to work within the rules to have something that is truly compliant, not just snuck through the cracks.

That's all for me on this topic. I'm out now.

 

[bmc69]

I own or have owned probably 40 pre-1980 Ford and Willys trucks or other vehicles...11 of those EBs. I was brutally made aware of how critical the VIN legality issue is as a result of a tragic accident involving one of my trucks - 1978 Bronco - driven by my brother at the time.

Maryland is full of vehicle inspectors that are as lazy and uninformed as any and I've never had one ever dig down and find the frame VIN. They look at the one on the pillar tag or glovebox and happily sign off. I never gave that a second thought..."worked for me" as the old saying goes.

My '78 was third vehicle in to a three-car accident and crushed the one immediately in front of it. One child dead...driver and second child badly injured. Of the two vehicles that initiated the accident, one was uninsured and the other was under-insured. So who did the lawyers come after?...yours truly, to the tune of 6.5 million dollars.

My Bronco was impounded for nearly a month as various inspectors poured over it, some trying to find liability, others trying to avoid it. In the end, they found nothing and thanks to a cooperative sheriffs office, no fault was found, my insurance company successfully defended the suit and it all went away.

BUT!....had the frame VIN not matched the title and insurance information, my insurance company could have - would have - simply dusted their hands together and said "sorry for you, pal....your truck was not legally registered and insured".

 

[markatherton]

Are you planning to cut out the rusty portions of the frame and weld in replacement metal?

 

[roundhouse]

This subject comes up a lot, but is DIFFERENT in every state.

unless someone is discussing the rules in YOUR state, it is irrelevant.

 

[Pops68]

This subject comes up a lot, but is DIFFERENT in every state.

unless someone is discussing the rules in YOUR state, it is irrelevant.

Shouldn't this be "LAWS" instead of rules??

Same thing with the title???

The actual LAWS are what's important here, not RULES?????

"rules" don't mean shit if they don't follow the LAWS!!!

Worked in a Borden's ice cream plant after sophomore year in college....one of the guys had a 'rule' : after 2 AM you can ignore red lights!!!

 

[hyghlndr]

Too many people whine about this, if you stamp a replacement frame with numbers from a rusty not safe one, there is little they can say. The difference is replacement in an honest attempt vs intent to defraud or theft with restamping.. imho. As a backup I can build almost as anything as a replica in my state, get a state issued vin and drive. Check with local folks and state as needed and move on. All they want is the tax money.