6R80 - 6 speed & 10R80 - 10 speed auto transmissions in our early broncos

>>> saw 73azbronco mention these in the C4 to C6 thread & figured a new thread would be better so info is more easily found.... I think Tumblin Automotive Inc. may have developed the 6R80 to bronco dana 20 kit & Advance Adapters is doing the mass market machining.... remember the thread from here recently >> http://classicbroncos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277680 .... anyway I noticed on Advance Adapters site that the adapter works for the new 10R80 too, thought not sure if it's as short as the 6R80.... "Ford upgraded the 6R80 to a new 10 speed in 2017
and the new transmission shares the same bolt pattern
and output spline as the 6R80 transmission.
The new 10R80 is adaptable with this same adapter
kit." .... also mentions>> "The 6R80 can be found behind the 3.7L V6 up
to the 6.2L V8 from 2009 to current. The 6R80
weights about 215 lbs and is built for 590 ft lbs of
input torque. ".... http://www.advanceadapters.com/downloads/503901.pdf .... also noticed the $660 list price for the kit & a few minutes later found it for $467.13 so some shopping around may be in order.... >> https://www.pfdiesel.com/product/6r80-to-bronco-dana-20-adapter/

>>> copy & paste to keep info together... below is Broncobowsher's take on these transmissions from the C4 to C6 thread.... think he's right about getting all those gears to shift at the right time.... >>>> Adaptors exist for the 6-speed. The controller gets interesting. Those really should be tied into the engine controller so the engine power can be properly cut during shifts.

The 10 speed, are you kidding? That has only been in the real world for a few months. Nobody is going to have ANYTHING for that right now. But stuff will come. Being co-developed with GM there will soon be stuff for that transmission. Few things in a year, maybe something usable in 2 or 3 years. Even then you will still want to use it with a proper engine controller as any of these new transmissions are no longer a stand alone affair of a few years ago.

IF you have been in any of these modern transmissions you will notice that the clutch packs are getting tiny. This is for fuel economy. When the clutch isn't engaged, the less clutch in the pack the less drag and better mileage. But these new transmissions hold big power and last forever compared to the dinosaurs of the past. This is done with careful powertrain management. The shifts come quick, which would normally be a swift kick in the pants shift. But with the engine torque killed right at the shift, the kick of the shift replaces the engine torque and it is programmed to happen seamlessly. So you feel a nice smooth shift with a steady torque feel all while the transmission makes a quick shift so the tiny clutch pack doesn't take a beating.

So if your idea of sticking one of these new 6,8,or 10 speed transmissions on the back of an old iron V8 and running a crude EFI or even a carb and expecting great results, you will be so sorely disappointed. Not only will the shifts be horrible but the transmission will be short lived trying to deal with sustained torque during the shift. It may run for a while, but it won't be a long lived nor a happy life.

So the easiest bet is to use an OEM PCM and a modular engine? These wrecked vehicles can be bought relatively cheap for the powertrain stuff. One thing I've heard, and I wish I could remember where, is that the modular engines aren't very good for rebuilding. Not sure why, but that's what someone told me about 3 years back when I was looking into one.

Obviously, doing what was or is done with the explorer motor swap to get EFI, a complete swap with all the goodies is best. It just depends how good it works installed from another vehicle, the explorer being a truck so it was or is a no brainer.

While modular motors are not "NOT" designed to be rebuilt, they do not have the extra material old iron blocks have to make rebuilding simpler.

So if your idea of sticking one of these new 6,8,or 10 speed transmissions on the back of an old iron V8 and running a crude EFI or even a carb and expecting great results, you will be so sorely disappointed. Not only will the shifts be horrible but the transmission will be short lived trying to deal with sustained torque during the shift. It may run for a while, but it won't be a long lived nor a happy life.

Click to expand...

Excellent point, but anything can be overcome with programming. All we need is somebody to do it. I'm still bouncing around the idea of the 6 or 10r80.

This is advance adapters info:

Ford 6R80 & 10R80 Automatic Transmission
Ford 6R80 transmission

The Ford 6R80 transmission is an impressively strong, band free, 6 speed automatic transmission modeled after the renowned and respectable ZF 6HP26 six speed automatic transmission.

The 6R80 was first introduced in 2009 and is manufactured under ZF license at the Ford Transmission Plant in Livonia, Michigan. It can be found behind a multitude of Ford engines ranging from the 3.7 V-6, all the way up to the robust 6.2L V-8. While the transmission is offered in several engine applications, each transmission variation is integrated differently depending on engine and vehicle application.

The 6R80 features a durable, dependable, band-free design, equating to less complexity than its earlier four speed predecessors. Ford also revised the transmission to improve even smoother shifts and improved fuel economy versus the original ZF 6HP26. Most noteworthy of the improvements was the addition of a 1 way clutch that offers smoother 1-2 upshifts and 2-1 downshifts. The transmission utilizes five clutch packs and a single one-way clutch to achieve six forward gear ratios, whereas earlier four speed units use six or more clutches/bands to achieve only four gears. The 6R80 also features lockup torque converter capabilities in all 6 gears and an integrated Tow/Haul mode for increased towing performance and braking. The transmission has a respectable low 1st gear of 4.17:1 which also provides for increased towing performance and offroad capabilities. The 6R80 offers two overdrives, the highest of which is 0.69:1. The double overdrive maximizes fuel economy by offering lower engine RPM at cruising speeds. The transmission’s over all gear ratio spread is ideal, offering an impressive ratio spread of 6.04:1 from first to sixth gear. The 2nd through 6th gear ratios are impressively close together. This creates incredibly smooth shifts and increased reliability.

Although the 6R80 has 6 forward gears, the transmission is only slightly larger than earlier four-speed automatics. The transmission is without question stronger than earlier Ford 4 speed transmissions. The 6R80 can likely handle up to 1000HP with proper ECU tuning and potentially even more with the implementation of aftermarket components

The 6R80 uses synthetic transmission fluid (Mercon LV). The transmission used in the Ford F-150, has a fluid capacity of 12.10 quarts and weighs 215lbs. The 6R80 measures 23.75” and utilizes a large 31 spline 4wd output shaft. In 2011 Ford removed the internal TCU enabling the usability of stand-alone computers

6-6speeds

R- Rear wheel drive

80- Ford Motor Co. strength designation. Nominal max input torque 590lb-ft

6R80 Transmission Ratios: 4.17, 2.34, 1.57, 1.14, 0.87, and 0.69:1.

Adapting The 6R80

The 6R80 is a prime candidate for conversions in a multitude of vehicle applications. The length of the transmission is remarkably short for a 6 speed transmission. The wheel base length of some vehicles can limit some conversion applications. We do not recommend using this transmission on CJ5 Jeeps and other similar short wheel base vehicles. On longer wheel base vehicles, this transmission is well suited. The transmission also has a narrow oil pan that allows for better front drive shaft clearance. Advance Adapters currently offers adapters for the Bronco Dana 20 and our renowned Atlas Transfer Case.

Shift controllers:

http://www.usshift.com/usq6.shtml

I just sent them an email with lots of questions. BTW, that quick6 costs about $1,200

To add more confusion, there are also 4r100, 6r100, and 6r140's, all being specific to the super duty ford trucks

10R80 gearing is interesting
4.69
2.98
2.14
1.76
1.52
1.27
1
.85
.68
.63
R=4.86

So it is a triple overdrive. But in a retrofit application how useful are all those gears? .63 or .68 OD will not be noticed in a Bronco.

As for the torque rating, that is the transmission input shaft. So after the torque convertor, not engine output.

It is amazing that 10 gears can be done with 6 frictions and a single overrunning clutch. The 4-speed automatics typically have 6 frictions and 2 overrunning clutches. The ZF 8-speed (which I find to be a very good transmission as far as gear spacing goes) does it with 5 trictions and no overrunning clutches, and any forward gear is done with at least 3 clutches locked up (no clutch drag when locked).

The A-clutch on the 10-speed is used in every gear except 7-10 only has 3 frictions and 2 steels. In old school, low HP applications, this would be a total joke. It would let the smoke out real quick. But with modern engines that are putting out double, triple, even more HP of the days of old that little clutch lives a happy life. Modern tuning does a lot. I don't see how these modern transmission can be retrofitted into older engine controls and be expected to live. The transmission tuning (hardware and software) are part of the package with the engine, they work together.

I have not looked at the interface between tranny and engine controls. I guess you are saying it blips the throttle to reduce power to allow the shift with minimal wear then rengages the tranny and power.

I have one of these transmissions in my jeep, or a version of it, the A580. My seat of the pants says there is no reduction in power anywhere in the powerband during shifts.
https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/NAG1-WA580.html

http://etereman.com/blog/racing-tra...ot-without-fault-here-is-what-to-look-out-for

That is the 5-speed. Not nearly as advanced as the newer 6-10 speed transmissions.

Did you see the line in there about active torque managment? That is where the engine torque is cut, but you feel the shift occur that keeps the feel of torque. So instead of a shift adding a kick of torque on top of the engine power, the kick of torque from the shift is in place of engine torque, all done seamlessly with adaptive computers making it better.

Some will blip the throttle on a downshift. Just right so the clutch snaps right in.

I can confirm that both the Explorer and the Coyote computers reduce torque during a shift. I haven't noticed any settings that would increase rpm on a downshift, but it wouldn't surprise me at all on a drive by wire system.

The 6r80 has a pretty good reputation already, but I'm curious as to how the 10 speed will hold up. The initial feedback I got from one of the engineers working on it wasn't so good. That was a while ago and it will probably be a couple years before it becomes doable for us, hopefully, all of the kinks will be worked out by then.

Here is an email reply asking about the 6/10r80

Thanks for contacting us.

Yes, the 6R80 control system is available now, and will work with any engine combination you choose, including any EFI or even carburetor.

We are developing for 10R80, and hopefully will offer it this year. Same deal with it as far as engine combo etc.
--
Best Regards,
Jake Chandler
Baumann Electronic Controls, LLC
support@usshift.com
(864) 646-8920



Now, I have a friend who has a 2018 Tacoma with the 10at, he hates it. Says it hunts and lugs if it doesn't know what to do.



Still going to call Bauminator and ask how their programming ona 6r80 handles a non ecu controlled/carbed motor. Will the tranny last and will i like the shifts.

Question: Will the 4R70W mounts work with the 6R80?

Some more facts on gear ratios between 4r70 6r80 10r80

4r70/AOD (comparing 4r70 to AOD):
Gear Ratio Chart. 4R70W, AOD. First, 2.84:1, 2.40:1. Second, 1.63:1, 1.47:1. Third, 1.00:1, 1.00:1. Fourth, 0.78:1, 0.67:1 ...



6r80:

4.17, 2.34, 1.57, 1.14, 0.87, and 0.69:1.

10r80:


4.70 for first, 2.99 for second, 2.15 for third, 1.80 for fourth, 1.52 for fifth, 1.28 for sixth, 1.00 for seventh, 0.85 for eighth, 0.69 for ninth, and 0.64 for tenth.


Looking at these ratios with our slab sided vehicle, I'd almost say sticking with a 6r80 would be better than the 10 speed for simplicity if nothing else. of course, How is an F150-250 any more aerodynamic or lighter than a bronco? The reason to go for the 6r80 over the 4r70 to me is the first gear almost doubled down to 4.1 vs 2.8.

The 10R is coming however I think it will be better suited behind the smaller power plants like the eco boost V6. My interest is in the 4 cylinder eco boost that with little modification is pumping out over 600hp. That little beast would fit so much nicer into the engine bay of our early broncos but I honestly believe it will def. need the 10 speed to keep it in the sweet spot. The future is holding some grand ideas and power plants.... I can't wait!

Remember it is Eco or Boost. The 2.3 Ecoboost will be cruising in the boost. I'm sure fun to drive but don't expect any sort of economy.

There are plenty of truck owners out there who have found the economy of the Ecoboost isn't there. And those that do have a pretty light foot.

Broncobowsher said:

Remember it is Eco or Boost. The 2.3 Ecoboost will be cruising in the boost. I'm sure fun to drive but don't expect any sort of economy.

There are plenty of truck owners out there who have found the economy of the Ecoboost isn't there. And those that do have a pretty light foot.

Click to expand...

Who's building EBs for economy?? Let the little EcoBoost sing!!!;D

Sorry but you need to be able to cool that turbo if you let it sing...

i have done the 6r80 swap in my stroked/blown 07 mustang 3v with the quick6. think i was one of the 1st 10 or so with 3v cars. Its pretty amazing considering i have had 5 spd manual ( factory ) , 6 speed manual, and now 6r80 and have plenty of basis to compare with. I went ahead and installed the billet input shaft, exedy clutches, and i lock my circle d triple disc in 2nd thru 6th straight off the shift. amazing and my car is faster by quite a margin than ever before with better manners and the tuning in the quick 6 is awesome for dummies. i will never own another manual and when the 10r architecture is available, i will be upgrading yet again. If I can help, just ask.

Also, PM me if you need a controller

73azBronco... old thread but...

DId you get a response from Jake about how a 6r80 would last behind a torquey SBF with an aftermarket controller that didn't reduce torqe at every shift to reduce "rapid wear?

I'm interested but Baumann didn't have a working controller last time I was ready...now I'm concerned about 700+ ft lbs at the flywheel and the trans not being able to take the abuse every day for 5 years or more..

thanks