1970 Ford Bronco - Death Wobble

[m_m70]

Order up all of my suspension parts including new radius arms from North East Classic Ford

Wow..........hoping you mean radius arm and c-bushings. Changing out the arms seems a bit much.

I run 28lbs air in front and 26lbs in the rear. I don't run a winch or a top. That's what works for my setup but every Bronco is different and there is no static number. You need to take the time and see what works for your truck. Your Jeep will ride different than your Bronco. Your Bronco will ride different than my Bronco......I'll leave that there

Did you try rotating the tires yet? If not, I would do so before going through all the installation of the other stuff. Looking solid does not mean they are.
You’re gonna have the tires off anyway for the install, so you might rotate them, accidentally on purpose when putting it all back together.
In that case you would never know if it was all the new components, or a change in the tires.
So if you have not, I still say rotate one side front back, drive it, see what happens. Then rotate the other side front to back, drive it, and see what happens.

Paul gives some great advice above. Knowing your truck and how it behaves when specific things go wrong is gold. Throwing all new parts at your vibration won't help you down the road if it comes back (unless you want to throw all new parts at it again).

Unless you plan on wheeling it, don't worry about a stabilizing shock. Unless you like the way they look.

Your alignment numbers suck but so do most Broncos so your not alone. C-bushings will help caster and your toe is out instead of in. Not sure if they adjusted it for you or if they just ran your numbers.

Why not post some pics of your front end setup? Lots of knowledgeable guys here who would love to help you out.

 

[tonytony9]

Well, it’ll all be new up there then. Except for the tires…
Did you try rotating the tires yet? If not, I would do so before going through all the installation of the other stuff. Looking solid does not mean they are.
You’re gonna have the tires off anyway for the install, so you might rotate them, accidentally on purpose when putting it all back together.
In that case you would never know if it was all the new components, or a change in the tires.
So if you have not, I still say rotate one side front back, drive it, see what happens. Then rotate the other side front to back, drive it, and see what happens.

Even if you want to replace all those items with new anyway, it would still be nice to know if the tires had any part in it.

Not a bad idea. I am also going to do a balance/alignment.

 

[DirtDonk]

You’re missing my whole point.
Certainly there’s nothing wrong with doing an alignment and a balance, but neither will fix a Death Wobble!
If you have a bad tire, it’s a bad tire and nothing will fix that except a new tire. So we are trying to find out if it’s actually a bad tire, by rotating the tires off of the front, where the wobble is, to the back, where they won’t have any effect and cannot create a wobble.
So if they are indeed the culprit, stop spending money (for now) on things that are less likely to have a positive result, and rotate the tires.
If you can’t do it yourself in your driveway, then certainly it’s OK to have a shop do it. But have them do one side at a time.
You spend less money that way, and you get to narrow it down more accurately.

OK. I admit that there always exists the possibility that an alignment by itself will get rid of a wobble. It happens now and then. There is also the possibility that a balancing, especially a road force balancing, will get rid of a wobble. If happens now and then too.
But they are both way down on the list compared to getting a new tire, or tires.
Because if it is truly a busted up internal belt or some other type of internal damage to a tire, no amount of balancing or aligning is going to stop it from happening.
Just as no amount of throwing new parts, or tightening old parts, will truly get rid of it. Sure, in less severe cases, doing those things can often help. And the Internet is full of Jeep stories where replacing a track bar bolt got rid of the wobbles.
But more often than not, especially with Broncos, they are just spending time and money needlessly.

 

[Yeller]

These threads that drag on kill me. Typically death wobble is not hard to fix. You’re getting great advice, the assumption that tires are solid that have been sitting for 5 years is insanity, and often the entire reason for the issue. The other is your alignment numbers are beyond horrible, that has to drive terrible, not sure what C bushings you have installed but it needs more caster.

Lastly I find it amazing the shear number of professionals that can’t diagnose and fix death wobble.

List of causes in order of importance
1 - tires
2 - worn parts, specifically again in order. track bar bushings, radius arm bushings, ball joints, tie rod, drag link, steering box, steering shaft components.
3 - alignment, specifically, toe and caster.
4 - and rare… tire pressure. Tire pressure typically will change drive ability as far as wandering and rut chasing but rarely solves death wabble, if it does see #1 and replace them.

Example: buddy brought me his new to him 66 Mustang. Complained it vibrated horrendously over 55mph. Spotted 2 things just walking up to it. Washers on the lug nuts missing Cragar SS unilug wheels and the “new” tires were 15 years old. Both dangerous issues. Replaced the tires, installed the correct washers and all the vibrations are gone.

Not saying you must replace your tires but they are highly suspect. Other is you need more caster.

Side note. The camber being out of spec, would make me highly suspicious of bad ball joints on a Dana 44 or a bad king pins on a Dana 30. May be fine and just a well used old axle but something I would look at and comes back to #2 on the list.

 

[tonytony9]

You’re missing my whole point.
Certainly there’s nothing wrong with doing an alignment and a balance, but neither will fix a Death Wobble!
If you have a bad tire, it’s a bad tire and nothing will fix that except a new tire. So we are trying to find out if it’s actually a bad tire, by rotating the tires off of the front, where the wobble is, to the back, where they won’t have any effect and cannot create a wobble.
So if they are indeed the culprit, stop spending money (for now) on things that are less likely to have a positive result, and rotate the tires.
If you can’t do it yourself in your driveway, then certainly it’s OK to have a shop do it. But have them do one side at a time.
You spend less money that way, and you get to narrow it down more accurately.

OK. I admit that there always exists the possibility that an alignment by itself will get rid of a wobble. It happens now and then. There is also the possibility that a balancing, especially a road force balancing, will get rid of a wobble. If happens now and then too.
But they are both way down on the list compared to getting a new tire, or tires.
Because if it is truly a busted up internal belt or some other type of internal damage to a tire, no amount of balancing or aligning is going to stop it from happening.
Just as no amount of throwing new parts, or tightening old parts, will truly get rid of it. Sure, in less severe cases, doing those things can often help. And the Internet is full of Jeep stories where replacing a track bar bolt got rid of the wobbles.
But more often than not, especially with Broncos, they are just spending time and money needlessly.

These threads that drag on kill me. Typically death wobble is not hard to fix. You’re getting great advice, the assumption that tires are solid that have been sitting for 5 years is insanity, and often the entire reason for the issue. The other is your alignment numbers are beyond horrible, that has to drive terrible, not sure what C bushings you have installed but it needs more caster.

Lastly I find it amazing the shear number of professionals that can’t diagnose and fix death wobble.

List of causes in order of importance
1 - tires
2 - worn parts, specifically again in order. track bar bushings, radius arm bushings, ball joints, tie rod, drag link, steering box, steering shaft components.
3 - alignment, specifically, toe and caster.
4 - and rare… tire pressure. Tire pressure typically will change drive ability as far as wandering and rut chasing but rarely solves death wabble, if it does see #1 and replace them.

Example: buddy brought me his new to him 66 Mustang. Complained it vibrated horrendously over 55mph. Spotted 2 things just walking up to it. Washers on the lug nuts missing Cragar SS unilug wheels and the “new” tires were 15 years old. Both dangerous issues. Replaced the tires, installed the correct washers and all the vibrations are gone.

Not saying you must replace your tires but they are highly suspect. Other is you need more caster.

Side note. The camber being out of spec, would make me highly suspicious of bad ball joints on a Dana 44 or a bad king pins on a Dana 30. May be fine and just a well used old axle but something I would look at and comes back to #2 on the list.

I admit I have not done well in explaining my process back to you all as this has been a multi-month thread. I tackled a few other projects on the bronco while this was outstanding.

Firstly, I want to point out that all of this is great advice that I appreciate you all for giving. Thank you.

See the attached link for pictures of my current steering and suspension components: MEDIA LINK

I decided to tackle the coils, leaf springs, shocks and radius arms + bushings immediately because they are shot. Whether they directly relate to the vibration or not. I decided to replace the radius arms for the simple reason that I did not want to get into the middle of the project to find out the interior is shot or the pin diameter has eroded. I went with Nick @ North East's recommendation there.

I agree, I should have rotated one tire at a time prior to doing the suspension. I will do this in the coming days. This is good advice. I understand vibration might be somewhat muted now. I assume if the vibration was caused by the tires, even with suspension components replaced, I will still experience it.

I checked #2 on @Yeller 's list. All seemed good to me, my mechanic agreed. Passenger side ball joint had very slight play.

Will let you all know where I am at after tire rotation and suspension is in.

 

[Yeller]

First off, I will apologize for being harsh, not why you came here. Sometimes I dole out a little tough love, sometimes not necessarily at the right time, there is no malice intended. Doesn't appear you took it that way, I really do mean to be helpful. Thanks for the update and pictures.

Yes, all of those rubber components and shocks need replaced. There is a lot of rust pitting on the chassis and components but shouldn't really be an issue as long as everything is solid, tapping with a hammer will reveal any issues to be worried about in those areas. It looks to be quite stock and original, it will drive great, just needs a little love to get there.

 

[tonytony9]

First off, I will apologize for being harsh, not why you came here. Sometimes I dole out a little tough love, sometimes not necessarily at the right time, there is no malice intended. Doesn't appear you took it that way, I really do mean to be helpful. Thanks for the update and pictures.

Yes, all of those rubber components and shocks need replaced. There is a lot of rust pitting on the chassis and components but shouldn't really be an issue as long as everything is solid, tapping with a hammer will reveal any issues to be worried about in those areas. It looks to be quite stock and original, it will drive great, just needs a little love to get there.

All good Yeller, much can be lost over internet communication which I assume would be resolved easily over a beer.

I opted to have my mechanic take care of the suspension job for me. I wish I had the time, but fighting and torching for days on end just is not in the wheel house for me right now.

After struggle, the front end is complete.

We encountered some issues with the rear upper shock mounts. My mechanic sent me the below picture and explained the nut snapped off. I spoke with Nick @ North East, he said he supplies the replacement upper rear shock mounts. My mechanic also note the frame is solid to the rear of the mounts, so no rotting like is typical. Based on the picture, am I proceeding correctly with having new upper rear mounts ordered and then welded in the same location as the current mounts?

 

[toddz69]

All good Yeller, much can be lost over internet communication which I assume would be resolved easily over a beer.

I opted to have my mechanic take care of the suspension job for me. I wish I had the time, but fighting and torching for days on end just is not in the wheel house for me right now.

After struggle, the front end is complete.

We encountered some issues with the rear upper shock mounts. My mechanic sent me the below picture and explained the nut snapped off. I spoke with Nick @ North East, he said he supplies the replacement upper rear shock mounts. My mechanic also note the frame is solid to the rear of the mounts, so no rotting like is typical. Based on the picture, am I proceeding correctly with having new upper rear mounts ordered and then welded in the same location as the current mounts?


View attachment 926941

That should be fine. Lotsa crust!

Todd Z.

 

[Oldtimer]

or . . . I had one snap off like that years (decades) ago.

Filed the end flat, drilled and tapped for a 10-24 screw, turned a cap, and bolted it together till I could fix it proper.
Discoverd my temp fix last year when I replace rear axle.
Still need to fix it.

 

[tonytony9]

or . . . I had one snap off like that years (decades) ago.

Filed the end flat, drilled and tapped for a 10-24 screw, turned a cap, and bolted it together till I could fix it proper.
Discoverd my temp fix last year when I replace rear axle.
Still need to fix it.

View attachment 926942

View attachment 926943

Thats not a bad idea. I am also using the Bilstein shocks front and back similar to your setup I believe.

I am not off-roading, and this could save me I presume a few hundred bucks on the welding. I already ordered the mounts from Nick: https://www.northeastclassicfordparts.com/product/rear-shock-mount-upper-left-driver-side/ and right side.

Lets see how crazy the weld labor will cost me.

 

[m_m70]

Just looked at your pics. Hoping that whoever is doing the parts swap is cleaning up some of the rust/scale in the bracket areas and maybe hitting it with some sort of ospho or rust conversion. Only saying that cause with it all put back together you're no going to be able to get to those areas without removing the new parts and installing again.....
Obviously your bushings are shot. Assuming you'll be going with the degreed bushings to help your castor numbers?

 

[tonytony9]

Just looked at your pics. Hoping that whoever is doing the parts swap is cleaning up some of the rust/scale in the bracket areas and maybe hitting it with some sort of ospho or rust conversion. Only saying that cause with it all put back together you're no going to be able to get to those areas without removing the new parts and installing again.....
Obviously your bushings are shot. Assuming you'll be going with the degreed bushings to help your castor numbers?

Yes, I am having him coat all the areas I wont be able to reach after install in preparation for my POR-15 (or some other product) application of the entire frame and axles in the coming months.

I am actually not sure what degree the c bushings will have. I ordered the stock ones from Nick. Invoice just says Radius Arm C Bushing Rubber.

 

[tonytony9]

Yes, I am having him coat all the areas I wont be able to reach after install in preparation for my POR-15 (or some other product) application of the entire frame and axles in the coming months.

I am actually not sure what degree the c bushings will have. I ordered the stock ones from Nick. Invoice just says Radius Arm C Bushing Rubber.

To clarify, he is cleaning up the rust in those areas and treating. Leaving the rest of the open areas to me.

 

[tonytony9]

Just looked at your pics. Hoping that whoever is doing the parts swap is cleaning up some of the rust/scale in the bracket areas and maybe hitting it with some sort of ospho or rust conversion. Only saying that cause with it all put back together you're no going to be able to get to those areas without removing the new parts and installing again.....
Obviously your bushings are shot. Assuming you'll be going with the degreed bushings to help your castor numbers?

I believe these are the bushings: https://www.northeastclassicfordparts.com/product/radius-arm-bushing-kit-stock-rubber/

 

[m_m70]

I am actually not sure what degree the c bushings will have. I ordered the stock ones from Nick. Invoice just says Radius Arm C Bushing Rubber.

Call Nick and let him know what your caster numbers are. They're horrible and degreed c-bushings is the way to fix unless you have the inner C cut and turned. Turning the inner C is the best and correct solution but is also the more complicated and with that, more cost.

 

[m_m70]

Yes, I am having him coat all the areas I wont be able to reach after install in preparation for my POR-15 (or some other product) application of the entire frame and axles in the coming months.

That's good! Make sure what your final decision is will work with what he is putting on now. My understanding is that POR15 works great on bare somewhat rusty metal but not so good on primed surfaces. I could be off base here but I would definitely check.

 

[Yeller]

You need 4* bushings minimum, it’s screaming for more caster.

 

[tonytony9]

First off, I will apologize for being harsh, not why you came here. Sometimes I dole out a little tough love, sometimes not necessarily at the right time, there is no malice intended. Doesn't appear you took it that way, I really do mean to be helpful. Thanks for the update and pictures.

Yes, all of those rubber components and shocks need replaced. There is a lot of rust pitting on the chassis and components but shouldn't really be an issue as long as everything is solid, tapping with a hammer will reveal any issues to be worried about in those areas. It looks to be quite stock and original, it will drive great, just needs a little love to get there.

You’re missing my whole point.
Certainly there’s nothing wrong with doing an alignment and a balance, but neither will fix a Death Wobble!
If you have a bad tire, it’s a bad tire and nothing will fix that except a new tire. So we are trying to find out if it’s actually a bad tire, by rotating the tires off of the front, where the wobble is, to the back, where they won’t have any effect and cannot create a wobble.
So if they are indeed the culprit, stop spending money (for now) on things that are less likely to have a positive result, and rotate the tires.
If you can’t do it yourself in your driveway, then certainly it’s OK to have a shop do it. But have them do one side at a time.
You spend less money that way, and you get to narrow it down more accurately.

OK. I admit that there always exists the possibility that an alignment by itself will get rid of a wobble. It happens now and then. There is also the possibility that a balancing, especially a road force balancing, will get rid of a wobble. If happens now and then too.
But they are both way down on the list compared to getting a new tire, or tires.
Because if it is truly a busted up internal belt or some other type of internal damage to a tire, no amount of balancing or aligning is going to stop it from happening.
Just as no amount of throwing new parts, or tightening old parts, will truly get rid of it. Sure, in less severe cases, doing those things can often help. And the Internet is full of Jeep stories where replacing a track bar bolt got rid of the wobbles.
But more often than not, especially with Broncos, they are just spending time and money needlessly.

or . . . I had one snap off like that years (decades) ago.

Filed the end flat, drilled and tapped for a 10-24 screw, turned a cap, and bolted it together till I could fix it proper.
Discoverd my temp fix last year when I replace rear axle.
Still need to fix it.

View attachment 926942

View attachment 926943

I wanted to follow up with you all now that the suspension is done and I have been able to put a few miles on the setup. CLICK HERE FOR MEDIA LINK

I am not 100% satisfied with the install of the C-bushings. This might be due to my lack of knowledge (please check me if I am wrong), I assumed the c-bushings would fit cleaner and would have not buckled/ripped. As seen in my photos.

In terms of the vibration, it seems to have almost gone away. Now, I can drive up to 60 mph (previously this was around 50 mph), at around 60 mph (and this is inconsistent, it does not always occur) I will get a slight vibration in the steering wheel. I am rotating my tire, one side and at a time and trying this. From there, if it does not go away, I will go for alignment, balance at firestone.

Quick side note, my mechanic would not have been able to drop the gas tank to install the the near rear upper shock mounts at the time, so I opted for a quicker fix. Torched off the old pins, welded on new ones. Decent job, not perfect. You can see this in my media folder.

 

[DirtDonk]

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear some things are improving.
But now you’ve got me curious. I’m gonna have to go back and reread from the beginning because what you’re describing now doesn’t sound like a Death Wobble at all. More like something else.
But maybe you’re drilling down through a couple of issues and getting it dialed in.
Hope so! Keep at it!

 

[Kalex]

Those C-bushings don’t look right in terms of the “buckling” and tears. I just installed 2 sets and neither set neither looked like that or felt like they could have done that. Much more rigid.