351w vs 5.0 coyote

[broncnaz]

No 351 dyno sheets no big deal if the 302 puts out the same as the coyote well you know the 351 is going to put out more. A mild 351's will put out close to 350 ft lbs at around 2000 RPM's.
Why transmission and gearing? because that coyote engine is not a low RPM torque builder you need gearing just like you do with a 5.0 and exactly what transmission/transfer case are you going to bolt to the coyote?? all cost money. Axle gearing well its usally needed for both tire size and if you plan on running OD. If you look at what transmission the and axle gearing the mustangs and trucks with the 5.0 coyote have you will understand it a little better.
You still have to bolt some type of accesorries to the engine lets see swap in a bad ass engine but you dont have power steering?? and you really cant downgrade the alternator on a coyote so come on. Yes it can be done cheaper find a donor vehicle but theres not a lot of them yet and there is competion for them.
You cant really say a swap is the same between the two if you leave stuff out of the equasion just to make it seem that way. Of course you can upgrade the 351 to the hilt and spend a lot of money but you really dont have to a fairly stock engine will do the trick.
Yes a lot also depends on what direction you want to go but with a 351 you dont have to change much of anything but the coyote pretty much requires everything be changed.

 

[Gator809]

The dyno sheets I listed above showed that the coyote made similar or better power as a 5.0 which made more power than any 302 that came stock in any bronco. Why would you have to change the gearing? Anywhere? If your changing gearing for tire size it's a wash because you would be doing the same for ANY motor choice.


If you have a dyno sheet for a 351w that makes 350 tq at 2000 rpm it isn't cheap. It will have to be a stroker to get that amount of torque. And at that point the price really evens up.

The gearing in a bronco was engineered for a time of 55 mph speed limits and stock tires. Gearing in a modern truck is for a 65 to 70 mph speed limit with stock size tires with OD thrown in for better fuel economy. You could order the lower gears for more pulling power with either truck. And the new F150 is a heavier truck, that can pull more, with a taller gear. My 2000 f250 7.3 diesel has a 10k gvw, a 2013 5.0 f150 is 8200 gvw. Pretty stout if you ask me.

The point with accessories is this, most broncos didn't have power steering, AC, high output alternators. So if you are going to do an engine swap and add these accessories you are going to spend similar amounts of money to add them to either motor. Nothing says you have to go to ford and get the parts, the alternator, starter, ps pump can be bought at a parts store or even bought at a junk yard and rebuilt for similar prices with either motor. If you have done some upgrades line this on a 302 then the swap to a 351 is a easier choice, but if not, and you are wanting to upgrade at the swap time, it is closer.

I've already stated how to hook up any ford automatic to the coyote, manuals need a new bellhousing. Junkyard-able parts in a lot of cases.

Yes there are a lot of parts changed in a coyote swap. But if your going through the pain of a engine swap to get more power or modern convience like efi, more than 3 gears or an auto with OD your changing a lot of parts period.

 

[OX1]

Well we were talking about a 351w and really not many people are going to run the coyote at 6200 rpm to hit that 400 hp level for 100,000 miles and expect it to live. Actually ford racing only warrentees them for 2 years. If you look at dyno charts that coyote really kinda has poor lowend numbers its not until the top end where you see power.
Build a mild 300hp 351 and you'll be much happier and its a whole lot cheaper doesnt cost much to get 300 hp out of a 351.
Got to look at the whole coyote package there are more things to fail in the 5.0. aside from that I really dont se the power numbers being all that attractive.

You said a 5.0 is a 5.0, I pointed out they are all not the same. Fact is ford does warantee that motor for 100K in a mustang or an F150. Ford never waranteed a 400 Hp or 380 ft-lb torque 302.

Tired of hearing about the supposed lazy low end of a motor that puts out 250 ft-lbs to the wheels @ 1700 RPM (on an F150, so tire size and drivetrain loss should be close to a bronc on 33's).

Fact is, these motors will be as cheap as used EFI 302's were at some point in time. No, that time is not here yet, but when the time comes you can get a used low mile, F150, 5.0 for $6-700 or spend 3+ grand on a 351W build, the 5.0 is going to look real attractive (even with tougher installation).

This may be 10 or 15 years from now, but when you can't buy local parts for a 351W without special order everything (because that is the way the 351m/400 is these days), the fact of getting into a motor that was made in past 20 years jsut adds to the attractiveness. I also expect our great vendors will nail down some pretty nice kits.

 

[matts460]

Ford racing parts catalog i have has a new Boss 302 block listed. Would be a nice foundation for a sweet little 302 build for sombody. 351w from the factory where all pretty weak since 1971. BUT can be built, stroked whatever for far cheaper than a new crate 5.0 from ford. Can do all the same with an old school 302 aswell. I love the new 5.0 great motor and reliable desine. But would just be such a bitch to sqeeze into a bronco i think. Although you could snatch a new 5.0 from a wreckd mustang somware...Hmmm Just lots of choices if you have the jam to do it!

 

[WheelHorse]

For truck torque you want displacement in the name of stroke.

IF this were a Mustang forum, Coyote and done and done.

Coyote makes 448hp with no accessories at 6250. Add in a set of comp cams (not cheap) and whammo she sings 498 hp naturally aspirated.

Add on 10 psi and she's spitting out 700 hp...check out

After tuning with the Hellion single turbo kit, the Coyote produced peak numbers of 844 hp and 780 lb-ft of torque. The boost curve started at 8.6 psi at 3,500 rpm, rising to 14.2 psi at 6,000 rpm. The peak power number of 844 hp came at just 5,800 rpm, at which point the motor started becoming unhappy due to the valve-spring issue.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfp_1207_50l_coyote_bolt_ons/viewall.html

A Coyote's head flows over 300cfm per runner.

However...I will say this, I built a 450/rwhp/tq Mustang 5L coupe. All bells and whistles and you know what, I felt at even that rwhp number, it was a waste on the street.

If it were me, I'd do up a roller 351 and call it a day.

 

[englewoodcowboy]

When I looked at the cost of a Coyote I determined that it would be cost prohibitive for most people. Given that I looked when if first came out and was pretty much a crate engine only option, I figured the engine and harness/computer would run right at $15,000 plus the cost and time to fab everything in. Now that they can be found in junk yards it's more cost effective. HOWEVER you can build a monster Windsor for less than $5,000 that will still bolt in and run circles around a Coyote for what 99% of Bronco owners use them for. I could care less what the horsepower rating is at 6,000 RPM's, most Bronco engines are used and need max power (torque) from idle to around 2500-3000 RPM's where the Coyote is a dog, just like the older generation of modular engines.

Cool factor yes, cost effectiveness, not so much IMO.

I agree with you 100%. The biggest problem I think most of us find is that awesomeness (my word can't steal it from me lol) of high numbers. I have called many builders and talked for hours and came to one conclusion, the number one build for performance is street/strip use so I had to replan my strategy and start talking bottom end torque (thats what these CB's really need anyway). Most of the builders were to say the least dumbfounded because it is not an area they are looking at. They want high RPM's and numbers to bolster that, our CB's need low to mid range as most motors will rarely see over 4 grand on the tach with normal driving. While the Coyote boasts awesome numbers, your fuel economy would not be much greater than a well built 351w or 347 stroker. Best advice I have found so far is to build it along the truck side of things like the lightning engine. Ford engineers got it right with that one, low to mid torque was its forte and for our CB weight, short wheel base etc. its relatively easy and inexpensive considering new mod motor costs to build a 351 or 302 stroker into a very fun and reliable motor that will make your Bronco drive alot better than what it would take to make the coyote work where it is designed toalong with the easiest thing to swap in. Windsors are pretty much a bolt in while the coyote will need lots of work to fit.

 

[ilovemaui]

Just for reference I am in the process of dialing in the ecu on my 351 stroker. Yesterday I was dataloging on the street. I reviewed the log last night and noticed 335 ft/lbs at 2000 rpm and I was not even getting on it. If you're looking for torque build a stroker.

 

[chuck]

As you know there are rebuilds and then there are rebuilds. The Coyote and everything about it is new and it comes as a roller EFI with the EFI installed. When you build a engine usually reuse a lot of parts. Like reconditioned crank and rods. Plus bolts and brackets, damper flex plate. That story goes on and on so you really can't compare a new to rebuilt for quality. Then add in the new materials available today and the hi quality of production machines today (ever notice the weld quality of a EB frame?).
So lets compare milage 10 or 16 = coyote.
Or price? We just added the below up and the $12,288 is close but here is what you get. headers, motor mounts, oil relocation kit, serpentiine kit, radiator, rad. hoses, starter and cable, Tauras fan, Coyote engine cover, Coyote engine, Coyote control pack.
The serp. kit includes all brackets, new alternator, PS pump and remote res., new A/C compressor plus all the pulleys, idlers and tenisoners. The engine comes with the EFI system and water pump. There are other parts that can be had. I don't think you can get 400 HP out of a 351 for that price with all that stuff but you can reuse some of those parts and not have to buy them. I guess it all come down to what you want and or need. Do you really need 400 HP? As far as low end power. The EB we installed a Coyote in would make 32" tires look like they were on fire until you let off the shinny peddle. We went to 35s and on a test drive Jason came around a corner and stepped on it "a little" and broke a new Atlas yoke and both sides of a new drive shaft.
My opinion is you don't need 400 HP but it sure is fun.

 

[OX1]

Got to love it when people start putting info out that wasnt the OP's orginal question it was 351W vs coyote. All things said the 5.0 coyote is about the same as a old 5.0 at low RPM.

Coyote pisses all over EFI302HO by 100 ft-lbs @ 2000 RPM.....

As you know there are rebuilds and then there are rebuilds. The Coyote and everything about it is new and it comes as a roller EFI with the EFI installed. When you build a engine usually reuse a lot of parts. Like reconditioned crank and rods. Plus bolts and brackets, damper flex plate. That story goes on and on so you really can't compare a new to rebuilt for quality. Then add in the new materials available today and the hi quality of production machines today (ever notice the weld quality of a EB frame?).

Chuck, are you thinking at some point you will have a kit that allows you to drop in a junkyard coyote?
Maybe even with an EB specific harness.

 

[ilovemaui]

As you know there are rebuilds and then there are rebuilds. The Coyote and everything about it is new and it comes as a roller EFI with the EFI installed. When you build a engine usually reuse a lot of parts. Like reconditioned crank and rods. Plus bolts and brackets, damper flex plate. That story goes on and on so you really can't compare a new to rebuilt for quality. Then add in the new materials available today and the hi quality of production machines today (ever notice the weld quality of a EB frame?).
So lets compare milage 10 or 16 = coyote.
Or price? We just added the below up and the $12,288 is close but here is what you get. headers, motor mounts, oil relocation kit, serpentiine kit, radiator, rad. hoses, starter and cable, Tauras fan, Coyote engine cover, Coyote engine, Coyote control pack.
The serp. kit includes all brackets, new alternator, PS pump and remote res., new A/C compressor plus all the pulleys, idlers and tenisoners. The engine comes with the EFI system and water pump. There are other parts that can be had. I don't think you can get 400 HP out of a 351 for that price with all that stuff but you can reuse some of those parts and not have to buy them. I guess it all come down to what you want and or need. Do you really need 400 HP? As far as low end power. The EB we installed a Coyote in would make 32" tires look like they were on fire until you let off the shinny peddle. We went to 35s and on a test drive Jason came around a corner and stepped on it "a little" and broke a new Atlas yoke and both sides of a new drive shaft.
My opinion is you don't need 400 HP but it sure is fun.

Of course you need 400 hp. There is no doubt that my stroker will hit 400 hp and it was a lot less than $12k. The only part of the 1996 roller motor I reused was the block.

 

[KyleQ]

400HP out of a 351W for under 12K? I'm betting you can surpass the performance in every way of that Coyote with a 351W for spending less than half. Fuel economy out the window - its more cubes and the aftermarket is silly for these.

205 CC heads
10.5:1+ Compression
Big Cam
450HP+

I don't know what the fascination is with this new engine - sure it is nice in every way, but the cost is not worth the end result - unless you are going after that...

 

[OX1]

I don't know what the fascination is with this new engine - .

Because before too long, it will be a $6-700 take out from an F150 that no one else wants.

 

[ilovemaui]

Because before too long, it will be a $6-700 take out from an F150 that no one else wants.

Then it won't be $12k.

Honestly, if I was going to spend that kind of money I'd go with an LS3 and a 700R and it would be cheaper.

 

[matts460]

Can i be a smart ass and say just stick some Nitros Oxide on whatevers under the hood! LOL (yes i know that wouldnt work right) But funny to think about. Actually in all serousness what do you all think about one of those small weiand roots style blowers on a 302? Roots blowers make some good power right from the start somewhat. Ofcousrse then youd need hood clearence or a nice hole in hood.

 

[SSDDBRONCO]

Then it won't be $12k.

Honestly, if I was going to spend that kind of money I'd go with an LS3 and a 700R and it would be cheaper.

Dude you will spend less than the cost of putting any Ford efi in the bronco if you put a chebby in. My friend always tells me to put a ls1 with the 4l80 or wat ever tranny it is and it will cost dirt cheap for a modern drivetrain but i just cant. You don't put a chevy in a ford and vise versa it's just not right lol

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[matts460]

If i wanna see a cheby motor in some old Ford ill go to car show. (ya we spent thousands and thousands on this old Ford but we put in a cheap ass cheby crate motor in it that makes 220hp, Yank Yank) LOL I know LS1 do better than than but still!

 

[Broncobowsher]

When the LS motors first came out they were high dollar swaps as well. Now that they are a decade old you can get them fairly cheap, at least the bread and butter versions. The desirable versions are still cheap but will cost you more.

The ford coyote engines have only been around for a few years. The truck version I have driven is very different in feel from the mustang version I have driven. We are still in the early years of the life of the coyote. In a few more years the swap potential will get a lot stronger. Eventually you should be able to find coyote engines like you find 5.0s today. Even get your 3 flavors like you find today; basic truck 5.0 will be the basic truck coyote, mustang versions, and like finding a cobra 5.0 will be like finding a boss coyote.

 

[KyleQ]

If i wanna see a cheby motor in some old Ford ill go to car show. (ya we spent thousands and thousands on this old Ford but we put in a cheap ass cheby crate motor in it that makes 220hp, Yank Yank) LOL I know LS1 do better than than but still!

I nearly puked when the owner told me he had a LT1 in it - what a fuckhead...

 

[AZ73]

IMHO, the key is the ENTIRE drive train. Put a coyote in without upgrading everything else and see Chuck's comment (kaboom) Put in a much less expensive 351 and you'll have good torque at lower rpm, and money left over to upgrade some parts that will need to be upgraded to take the torque of a 351.

I think the coyote is an engineering marvel, and that scares me to death. I read about it and decided that there are WAY too many internal sensors that can go bad at the most in-opportune time. Reminds me of Armageddon - we're sitting on a rocket with 3 million parts all built by the lowest bidder. Less is more. When you can start picking them up used, cheap, it might be a consideration. But I think for the immediate future, I'd hold off and go with the 351.

Or just be a rebel and build a 347. All that talk about torque at higher rpm is just hearsay based on CAR cams.

 

[OX1]

Then it won't be $12k.

Honestly, if I was going to spend that kind of money I'd go with an LS3 and a 700R and it would be cheaper.

No, but it might be $8K. Some are always going to want new everything and that always cost 3-10 times junkyard stuff..........

At some point there is not going to be enough rebuildable 5.8 roller blocks, just like Tim Meyer can no longer find virgin 400's.