Anyone running a 700R4

[mountainview68]

Ok, I just purchased a new Bronco. It is a 68 and has been sitting for about 15 Years!!!.

I have a good idea on what I am going to do with an engine, but not sure on the tranny. I have not heard alot of good things about an AOD, and I plan on running 35's and a healthy engine. I would like an overdrive.

Thanks for your time.

 

[mlogan24]

Actually, what you have heard about the AOD is both correct and incorrect. The early AOD's had notorious weak points and were not up to the par of a strong engine and hard use. BUT-the early 700R4's were also known to have many similiar problems/weaknesses-so it is a misconception that the 700R4 is any better than the AOD.

Now-the good news. Both GM and Ford have over the years fixed pretty much all the weaknesses in both trannies. Those probelms they missed, have now been solved with aftermarket parts. Both 700R4's and AOD's (now known as 4L60E and AOD-E/4R70W, respectively, in their current electronically controlled form), can be built to handle more power than you'll likely ever put to them on the street.

That being said, unless you plan on running an entire GM drivetrain, it makes no sense to buy the engine-to-700R4 adaptor and the 700R4-D20 adaptors needed to run that tranny. I would strongly recommend you go with the AOD or an AOD-E/W (4R70W), which bolts up and only requires the purchase of one adaptor (AOD-to-D20) unless you plan on running an Atlas II. Then you can just get a 4x4 AOD and it bolts right up.

A couple AOD resources-

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/index.html#

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AODominators/

And to be fair-the best place to go for a SBF-to-700R4 adaptor ;D

http://www.discountadvanceadapters.com/700install.html#Anchor-Over-11481

 

[Mark]

I am running a 700R4 in one of my Broncos with about 400 horsepower. It has in its history burned up a number of C4s. And I'm certain it would destroy an AOD.
The 700R4 is performing admirably! I am VERY pleased.
Check out this site:
http://www.700r4inaford.com/

 

[Mark]

Also the 700R4 has lower first gear than the AOD (better with 35" tires) and the overdrive gearing is more advantagous for street use with larger tires.
;D

 

[jate]

Did you spend the $1000 in adapters to get the 700R4 to work or is there another way of getting one to work? Did you have to have a body lift to get it to fit?

 

[Broncobowsher]

I considered running a 700R4. After a LOT of thinking and planning, I did the 4R70W Ford trans instead. I beat on it almost every time it leaves the driveway. That transmission has been one of the most trouble free things I have put in.
As for having to run a separate computer for it, it is a blessing, not a curse. You can actually set it to shift when and how you want. The difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 is minimal. I actually find myself intentionally starting in 2nd gear because the 1-2 shift at 3 MPH in low range gets real annoying. Save 1st gear for the rocks.
Yes, the 700R4 can be built to take power. But the 4R70W can take it right out of the box with nothing more then a good valve body kit. Even the late model 4L60E still has a bad sprag in it; a friend blew one out not too long ago in his firebird.

 

[jate]

I considered running a 700R4. After a LOT of thinking and planning, I did the 4R70W Ford trans instead. I beat on it almost every time it leaves the driveway. That transmission has been one of the most trouble free things I have put in.
As for having to run a separate computer for it, it is a blessing, not a curse. You can actually set it to shift when and how you want. The difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 is minimal. I actually find myself intentionally starting in 2nd gear because the 1-2 shift at 3 MPH in low range gets real annoying. Save 1st gear for the rocks.
Yes, the 700R4 can be built to take power. But the 4R70W can take it right out of the box with nothing more then a good valve body kit. Even the late model 4L60E still has a bad sprag in it; a friend blew one out not too long ago in his firebird.

What vehicles does the 4R70W come in? Where did you get the computer? Does it just plug into the EFI wiring harness? What are the differenceds between that tranny and the AOD and AODE?

 

[70_Steve]

What vehicles does the 4R70W come in? What are the differenceds between that tranny and the AOD and AODE?

Bronco Tech links, to the left!

http://classicbroncos.com/tranny-aode.shtml

 

[Mark]

I did the 4R70W Ford trans instead. As for having to run a separate computer for it, it is a blessing, not a curse. You can actually set it to shift when and how you want. The difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 is minimal.

I guess there are factors to consider wether the difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 is minimal.
Big Questions: What size tires do you run? what gearing do you have? and how strong is your engine?
Also, that seperate computer runs what? about $300.
I think the core is more expensive for a 4R70W than a 700R4 by about $500.
It's not easy to find a 4R70W with a 302/351 bolt pattern.
and the overdrive is more favorable in the 700R4 (.74:1) than 4R70W (.67:1)

 

[Broncobowsher]

I run a very healthy 351 with almost 11:1 compression, trick flow heads, and slightly undercammed to enhance the bottom end. It is enough to have scared a few passengers and destroy a few pieces of the driveline too.

Tires are 33's and gearing is 4.88 with tera-lows in the case.
The OD in a 4R70W is .70, not .67
The .67 (2/3 really) is the overdrive ratio in the AOD/AODE

The computer is a standalone unit from Baumann engineering

Almost check the "more tech articles" and look up the "4R70W saga" This covers everything that went into my transmission swap, including the little bugs that I had to work out.

Cores are a little harder to find, yes, but try and find a core bronco power steering box. Those are even harder to find. Desirable parts rarely find themselves in the core pile.

As far as searching for a small block 4R70W, the 3 best sources are 3.8 liter mustang LX, 4.2 liter F150 or the 5.0 Explorer. My best pick is the '98 up Explorer

 

[jate]

Great information. Thanks for sharing. Are the 4rf70w strong enough out of the box to hook up to a 351w built with about 325 hp/ 400 fpt? If I were to find one from a wrecked explorer would I need to spend the $$ to have it rebuilt or could I bolt it up and go?

 

[Broncobowsher]

Great information. Thanks for sharing. Are the 4rf70w strong enough out of the box to hook up to a 351w built with about 325 hp/ 400 fpt? If I were to find one from a wrecked explorer would I need to spend the $$ to have it rebuilt or could I bolt it up and go?

With the Baumanator valve body kit, you recalibrate the transmission to cope with the increased torque of the 351. That should be all you need for strength.

Now for the "just bolt it in" part, it is a little more difficult then that. The Explorer T-case is a different pattern the the early bronco case. The Explorer case is also a POS compared to the bronco case. Easiest and best, but also the most expensive is to just bolt an Atlas to the back of the Explorer transmission and be done with it. Option 2 is to get the AA AOD adaptor and install that. Thi is what I did. The adaptor comes with a new tailshaft that requires disassambly of the transmission, but not necessarly rebuilding since all the parts can go back together without being reworked. Option 3, which I have thought of, but not checked out, is to swap in a truck tailhousing in place of the explorer housing and use a NP205 or a ZF adaptor and a D20. Keep in mind that this is only in my mind and I haven't checked that it has a chance of working.

 

[Synds9]

i plan on going the 7004r route as well, thanks for all the info! lookin for that lower 1st gear and the higher over drive also it's a cheaper and easier to find tranny with parts availability being high

 

[Mark]

Tires are 33's and gearing is 4.88 with tera-lows in the case.

If you were running 35's or 37's that 1st gear wouldn't be so minimal

Cores are a little harder to find, yes, but try and find a core bronco power steering box. Those are even harder to find. Desirable parts rarely find themselves in the core pile.

Thanks for making my point. There are plenitful 700R4's making them MUCH less expensive as well as upgrade parts and repair parts.

Bottom line is this, IMHO, the 700R4 is better for street use using larger tires than little 33"s, 4.88 gearing, and strong engine. It's less expensive, easier to find, and easier to find shops to offer a quality 700R4 rebuild.

 

[Broncobowsher]

My point, I’ll try to be a little more direct, is that the 4R70W doesn’t need the upgrades that a 700 does. You don’t need to rebuild it and install the heavy duty sprags, servos, etc. You don’t have to worry about the ability of your tranny rebuilder to put it together right since most of them doing heavy duty rebuilds for drag racers. You don’t have to make sure you get the right core for a rebuild.
The final item is that with a computer, I can make this transmission anything I want with a flip of a switch., while driving down the road. Right now I have a street/race profile for one program. Flip a switch and it is instantly optimized for driving in low range.
If you want to change the shift profile on the 700, get out the box of springs and start playing with the governor and the valve body. Not my idea of fun when pulling off the highway and onto the trail.

 

[jate]

Is the 302 explorer 4R70W the only model that will work with a 351w? will the 4.2 4x4 truck version work or are there other mods or adapters that will be required? If I do change trannys I plan to change to an Atlas II.

 

[Mark]

The OD in a 4R70W is .70, not .67

Not according to the tech articles on this site

My point, I’ll try to be a little more direct, is that the 4R70W doesn’t need the upgrades that a 700 does. You don’t need to rebuild it and install the heavy duty sprags, servos, etc. You don’t have to worry about the ability of your tranny rebuilder to put it together right since most of them doing heavy duty rebuilds for drag racers. You don’t have to make sure you get the right core for a rebuild.

It's not hard to find the right core, unlike the 4R70W.
You're right, my rebuilder DOES heavy duty upgrades for drag racers.
With these upgrades, I'll bet my 700R4 is stronger than your 4R70W

The final item is that with a computer, I can make this transmission anything I want with a flip of a switch., while driving down the road. Right now I have a street/race profile for one program. Flip a switch and it is instantly optimized for driving in low range.

?? That computer _CAN NOT_ change your gearing! The control box only tells it when to shift.

If you want to change the shift profile on the 700, get out the box of springs and start playing with the governor and the valve body. Not my idea of fun when pulling off the highway and onto the trail.

?? What are you saying? You do NOT have to make ANY changes with the 700R4 when going onto the trail.

Broncobowsher, you can keep your 4R70W with your 33"s, I'll keep my 700R4 with my 35's or 37's and we'll both be happy. ;D

 

[Bart]

One thing you need to know in advance of making your decision as to which way to go is that with the Ford AOD you can't control second gear. Sound like the voice of experience here???? It is!!! I've got around $2300 in my aod. The last purchase was for a specialy built valve body and non lock up torque converter. With this I'll have a 1,2,3 shift pattern with electric o.d. Sound like a 700R4? I'm not saying which one to go for, just a wrinkle that I found AFTER ordering up an aod for my 351. By the way if you get one have it rebuilt with all Super Coupe parts. They're stronger and have the better 2.84 first gear and 1.54 second gear ratios. Good Luck, Glad you got a Bronco, and don't forget to vote for this site.

 

[Broncobowsher]

The tech article has a misprint. The wide gear set is .70 OD, the old 2.4 AOD gerset is .67 OD
I never said that the compute changes gear ratios. What it changes is shift timing and firmness.
The 4R70W gives you complete control of your gearing, including the ability to start in 2nd gear, can’t do that with a 700. If you want to play with the computer you can even start in 3rd or 4th gear. The ability to lock the trans in 3rd gear with the converter locked will be real nice if I ever spend any time on the dyno.
I still claim the difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 first is minimal. The converter that is being run will make a bigger difference in what is happening then a little difference in gearing. Unless you plan on driving around in first gear above 4000 RPM, but then the wider gear spread will make for a bigger drop in torque going into second.

One of (but not the only) places I like the ability to start in 2nd gear is on the street. When sitting at a traffic light idling in first gear the truck just wants to go. shift to second takes out a bunch of the mechanical advantage and lets the truck sit still without creeping up on the rear glass on the lowered civic in front of me. Tip in the throttle slightly and it drives away in second gear just fine. Tip in aggressively and it shifts to first and pulls real hard.

Another reason a 4R70W is good is that you can connect it to the stock column shift. The linkage will have to be custom, but it has the right number of detents. The 700 has too many detents for the stock column shifter.

As you said. I’ll keep my 4R70W, you keep your 700R4 and we will each be happy.

Now if the choice were between an AOD and a 700R4, I would lean toward the 700 real fast.

 

[tonto]

I’ve been running the non-computer controlled AOD since 96, there were a few characteristics I didn’t like about the first AOD I ran for 5 years, but it was tolerable and completely to blame on the shop that built it.
It would search between 3rd & O.D. at low speeds to much and shifted way to hard from 1st to 2nd on hard or normal acceleration, the way the shop that originally set up the valve body was to blame for the hard 1-2 shift, solved that by getting a stock v-body and putting the Transgo shift kit in it which also reduced the O.D. searching.
The shop that did my most recent rebuild did an awesome job, I can’t find any issues with this AOD.
I’ve run the stock gear set and now the wide ratio gear set and I don’t really notice a difference between the two gear sets, as matter of fact I’ve read on the Mustang websites from guys who switched to the wide ratio gear sets that it didn’t improve the ¼ mile times at all, not that were trying to run the fastest ¼ mile.
I have a friend who has done at least two 700r conversions and I have checked them out, I think the pros & con’s of both transmissions equal them out.
700r $400.00 to $600.00 to build, it has a steel valve body, lowest 1st gear of any auto tranny, adapters to mate it to the Dana 20 around $1000.00, if memory serves good I don’t think a set of Ford headers or exhaust manifolds fit around the 700r’s bell housing so you may need a set of custom headers or to do some serious mods to a set anyone care to comment on this.
The AOD bolts right up to your bell housing, if your running EFI the T.V. cable is not an issue and if not Lokars has an adapter, cost of an AOD build depends on what level you want to build it, basing this on the non-computer controlled AOD, $900.00 for the average re-build, adapter $500.00
As far as the AOD wide ratio gear set I’d save the additional $500.00 that costs and run the stock ratio gear set and while I was at it I would forget the A.A. adapter and save the $500.00 on that and get an AOD from a 4X4 with stock t-case adapter and take the $1000.00 you saved and put it towards getting an Atlas t-case which will bolt right up to the stock 4X4 AOD.
With this said if I were starting from scratch I would probably go with the 700r for that ultimate low 1st gear and the steel valve body that has less wear and warpage possibilities and the O.D. ratio which is more compatible with big tires.