Anyone running a 700R4

[mlogan24]

Hey Broncobowsher,

A little off topic-but since you're following this thread, I was going to ask. Would you mind e-mailing me your latest .btc shift files? If you can that would be great. I'd also like to upload them to the Yahoo AOD group's files.

Thanks!

As far as staying on topic-some figures were kicked around for cost, so I thought it might be helpful to give mine-

4x4 AOD-E/W $450
Baumann TCS $425
Valve body kit $100
AA AOD-D20 Adaptor $500
Labor to swap out 4x4 output shaft for AA output shaft FREEBIE! Zip Zero Nada (Did it with the neighbors help)
Ford Parts $30ish
Shifter $Free (column mount) to $180

So all said and done-figure $1500-1600 (I didn't add in misc. stuff and driveshaft shortening lengthening as that can vary from install to install) to put in an electronic AOD. For a non-electronic AOD swap, your core will be much less (NOTE: NON-ELECTRONIC AOD'S ARE BASICALLY JUST AS PLENTIFUL IN THE YARDS AS 700R4'S) and you can shave off the $500 for the controller of course. Figure adding in about $200-300 for performance upgrades on the AOD. Hope that helps.

As far as the 700R4 goes, like I said before, it also has some great features, but comparing the costs just didn't add up for me. Granted, the core is cheap and it's cheap to rebuild (NOTE: there is nothing magic about the 700R4's in stock form, I know several guys that have gone through quite a few of them just by using them hard but nothing crazy, so you almost have to do a performance rebuild on one). But once you add in the cost of a second adaptor (assuming you are using a SBF engine and a D20 t-case) you either break even or it costs a little more.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I would love to send you my current files. I just need to get a computer working out in the garage. The $20 laptop I was using just devalued itself to $0 when it decided to no longer boot (hint, don’t spill brake fluid on your laptop).

PM me with an email address that I can send them to. Not sure when I will get to sending them, lots of pots on the stove right now. Still need to raise that 2-3 shift at WOT a couple hundred RPM. and drop the 3-4 shift at idle by 1 or 2 MPH.

That $30 at ford sounds high. I think I got those 3 parts for around $9.

 

[mlogan24]

Yeah, I'll send that PM right now, and if you have the ability to pull those files in the future, I'd love to get them. If you don't mind, I'll check with you in a few months if I don't hear anything from you.

Thanks on that $30 amount. I really couldn't remember how much it was for those parts, I just knew it was a small amount less than $30. So lets say $0-$30, depending on dealers idea of a profit margin. ;D

 

[BroncoDad]

You're right, my rebuilder DOES heavy duty upgrades for drag racers.
With these upgrades, I'll bet my 700R4 is stronger than your 4R70W

Don't mean to hijack, but how much torque will your 700 handle, and about how much does it cost to have it rebuilt as such? Thanks!

 

[toddz69]

700r $400.00 to $600.00 to build, it has a steel valve body, lowest 1st gear of any auto tranny, adapters to mate it to the Dana 20 around $1000.00, if memory serves good I don’t think a set of Ford headers or exhaust manifolds fit around the 700r’s bell housing so you may need a set of custom headers or to do some serious mods to a set anyone care to comment on this.

I would forget the A.A. adapter and save the $500.00 on that and get an AOD from a 4X4 with stock t-case adapter and take the $1000.00 you saved and put it towards getting an Atlas t-case which will bolt right up to the stock 4X4 AOD.

I'm planning to do a 700R4 in mine and to get away from the high cost of the 700R4-to-D20 adapter, I'm going to use a NP241 t-case, which has the added benefit of a 2.72:1 low range. Needs a slip-yoke eliminator kit, but that kit comes with a 32 spline output shaft (similar to WH's D20 kit or Chuck's 300M D20 shaft) and costs less than the D20 output shaft kits to boot. Will need a custom crossmember-we'll see how it turns out.

Todd Z.

 

[BroncoDad]

Thanks, don't know how I missed that. I was just curious though cuz I'm looking at putting one behind a Caddy 500 for my Jeep (sorry). It should have well over 550 ft lbs of torque and I was just wondering how much it would cost to have one built that strong. For you purists, the Bronco is staying ALL FORD. Thanks!

 

[jate]

What shifter linkage options are there with going with the 4R70W? Can I use my stock column shifter or is it easier or better to go with a floor shifter?

Anyone know why only the first two pages of the tech article are accessible?

 

[Kincade]

I guess it's time for me to stick my nose in here. ;-) As a disclaimer, I sell AA adapters to Bronco owners at a discount, and developed the 700r4/SBF adapter.

However, I don't sell 700's, and I don't make any more money on any specific adapters.

I am running a 700R4 in one of my Broncos with about 400 horsepower. It has in its history burned up a number of C4s. And I'm certain it would destroy an AOD.

Glad it's working out well for you Mark! Haven't heard from you in a bit. BTW, your bronco has a bit more than 400hp; maybe 400 at the wheels at 2500 rpm! ;D

Did you spend the $1000 in adapters to get the 700R4 to work or is there another way of getting one to work? Did you have to have a body lift to get it to fit?

Wow, $1000? Where are you guys buying your adapters, 4 wheel parts? Daymn, drop me an email! It'll only be $1000 if you're rounding to the nearest $1k. No body lift is needed, but with any transmission conversion, it makes it a lot easier.

BTW, you have to buy an adapter for the 4r70w also, and it costs a little more than the 700-d20 adapter. If you do an atlas, your adapter is under $200 (can't post the price on a public board).

s for having to run a separate computer for it, it is a blessing, not a curse. You can actually set it to shift when and how you want. The difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 is minimal.

Thats nice to have a $300 computer that does that; I personally prefer the $40 bracket on my 700 that does the same thing; but the baumannator works very nicely too. Ask Mark about the TV system he has.

As far as the first gear difference being minimal,iIts as minimal as going from 3.88's to 4.11's - which many people pay money for. Its significant if you have a heavy vehicle, big tires, want acceleration off the line, or want to crawl slowly. %)

I have 3.06 first gear, 2.6 STR converter, 5.13 gears, and a 4.3 Atlas with 35" street tires; and I STILL would like to be lower many times.

Cores are a little harder to find, yes, but try and find a core bronco power steering box. Those are even harder to find. Desirable parts rarely find themselves in the core pile.

The point is, I can get a 700 built for me for $1k with NO core charge, AND a warranty. Where can you get a 4r70w for $1k out the door with a warranty?

Most people who invest in a large conversion like this would like a warranty too; not just a backyard transmission that may or may not last. If we're counting junkyard or OEM transmissions out of the "good" years of 700's, I can get you by for a lot cheaper; but you won't have a warranty.

The cost difference here is not minimal; and I'm not trashing the 4r70w, but to say they cost the same is completely incorrect.

My point, I’ll try to be a little more direct, is that the 4R70W doesn’t need the upgrades that a 700 does. You don’t need to rebuild it and install the heavy duty sprags, servos, etc. You don’t have to worry about the ability of your tranny rebuilder to put it together right since most of them doing heavy duty rebuilds for drag racers. You don’t have to make sure you get the right core for a rebuild.

That's not exactly true either; there's a whole set of articles on TCCOA from jerry wrobleski (sp?), who is an engineer at ford; he designed most of the EEC programming. While the mods are not too expensive, I wouldn't say that the 4r is world class out of the box. It's NOT bulletproof by any means; I've seen more than a few blown in stock vehicles, most recently at an autocross event (low speed twisties).

The final item is that with a computer, I can make this transmission anything I want with a flip of a switch., while driving down the road. Right now I have a street/race profile for one program. Flip a switch and it is instantly optimized for driving in low range.
If you want to change the shift profile on the 700, get out the box of springs and start playing with the governor and the valve body. Not my idea of fun when pulling off the highway and onto the trail.

???? Do you know anything about the 700, or are you making this up as you go? I literally have to loosen 1 set screw, move a cam one way or another, and tighten it again. It takes all of 15 seconds. I don't mean to sound harsh, but your post is NOT correct.

It's not hard to find the right core, unlike the 4R70W.
You're right, my rebuilder DOES heavy duty upgrades for drag racers.
With these upgrades, I'll bet my 700R4 is stronger than your 4R70W

It is. But it depends on how much you NEED; someone with a stock 5.0 doesn't need the trans that you have Mark; they need much less. So tell you what, lets get you one of the lower transmissions, and you just send that stroker on my way, and I'll send you a good running 5.0, ok? ;D

I never said that the compute changes gear ratios. What it changes is shift timing and firmness.

Which is exactly what I can change for a whopping $40. And your computer costs $300.

I still claim the difference between a 2.84 first and a 3.06 first is minimal. The converter that is being run will make a bigger difference in what is happening then a little difference in gearing. Unless you plan on driving around in first gear above 4000 RPM, but then the wider gear spread will make for a bigger drop in torque going into second.

Its minimal for you because you're running small tires. Try running 35" plus tires with rollcages, bumpers, winches, and extra gear and getting that rig moving.

And the converter DOES make a big difference; but by your rationale, we should just run 3:55 gears in the axles and buy a nice converter. And a better converter comes at the expense of HEAT; lower gear ratios don't have that effect.

Another reason a 4R70W is good is that you can connect it to the stock column shift. The linkage will have to be custom, but it has the right number of detents. The 700 has too many detents for the stock column shifter.

Man, I have sold a LOT of kits; and done a lot of conversions. And NOT ONE person has opted for the sloppy old fashioned shifter assembly, when they can have a durable and more functional shifter for $200 or less. It's not that it can't be done, but it's more trouble and time to make that work then it is to just buy a cable mounted shifter that you can mount ANYWHERE, that will have the detents in the correct position every time. I personally don't want my investment being ruined because my old shifter was improperly placing the detent 30% past 3rd gear. To each their own though; it is cheaper to go that way.

if memory serves good I don’t think a set of Ford headers or exhaust manifolds fit around the 700r’s bell housing so you may need a set of custom headers or to do some serious mods to a set anyone care to comment on this.

They do fit fine. The only problems I've had so far were custom long tubes by Kooks headers, that were designed to wrap very tightly around the bellhousing on a C4.

Don't mean to hijack, but how much torque will your 700 handle, and about how much does it cost to have it rebuilt as such? Thanks!

It depends on how you have it built; I conservatively estimate Mark's would handle 600hp/600 ft/lbs. It runs about $1200 IIRC for that configuration, with 5 pinion planetaries front and rear, hardened input shafts, etc. If you don't have that kind of power, you definitely don't need all those goodies. But Mark has a TON of low end torque at low RPM's.

Like I said before, I don't care which way you go; but you should at least have the right information to decide from. My host is switching, as are the domains, so the new site is mostly up at 700r4inaford.com; some links are broken though.

HTH

 

[bsaunder]

Kincade and I went around and around this very subject on the mailing lists a few years ago. At the end of it I had my mind set that it was about a wash between a properly setup 700r4 and an AOD with a 400-600hp engine in front of it. The main advantage on the street the 700r4 has is the gear OD - after driving my Lentech AOD for a while now, I am nervous running up hills in OD, yet I have to be in OD or turn close to 6k rpm in 3rd, not what I want to be doing on a normal basis - so the way I see it, I have a very expensive elongated C6 tranny with an almost useless OD (if I want the tranny to last). If I was to do it again - the 700r4 would be going in, or a C6 and dual t-cases

 

[jate]

Very interesting reply Kincade. This definitely has me rethinking my decision to go with the 4r70W. The cost of the adapters that I have heard to use the 700R4 is something like $400 for the engine adapter and $350 for the rear, but if you do the atlas it is my understanding that you will NOT need an adapter to connect the transmission to the transfer case. Is that incorrect?

I can buy a new 4R70W for a 5.0 98 - 2000 explorer/mountaineer for $950 without a core charge and this includes shipping, but no warranty. Since it is brand new, not rebuilt, I would not be too concerned. To add the needed shift kit it is an extra $150. This puts the cost of the 4R70W at $1,100 without a computer or harness. Those both cost about $550. So, the all in cost is $1,650 for the tranny, computer and harness. This assumes the tranny will mate up to the Atlas without an adapter.

If the cost to buy and build the stout 700R4 is $1,200, the adapter for the engine is $400, the bracket for the column is $50 that puts the total there at $1,650. So that puts it at roughly a wash in terms of cost. So, that leads me to the question of which one is a better transmission? I think I calculated that in overdrive with my 35" tires and 4.22 gears I would be turning about 1,500 rpms at 60 mph.

Given this analysis would you rather have an older 700R4 built well with no computer control (it seems the computer would be a plus, but I don't know this for sure) or a more modern computer controlled 4R70W with less desirable 1st and 4th gearing. Opinions????

I guess it's time for me to stick my nose in here. ;-) As a disclaimer, I sell AA adapters to Bronco owners at a discount, and developed the 700r4/SBF adapter.

However, I don't sell 700's, and I don't make any more money on any specific adapters.



Glad it's working out well for you Mark! Haven't heard from you in a bit. BTW, your bronco has a bit more than 400hp; maybe 400 at the wheels at 2500 rpm! ;D



Wow, $1000? Where are you guys buying your adapters, 4 wheel parts? Daymn, drop me an email! It'll only be $1000 if you're rounding to the nearest $1k. No body lift is needed, but with any transmission conversion, it makes it a lot easier.

BTW, you have to buy an adapter for the 4r70w also, and it costs a little more than the 700-d20 adapter. If you do an atlas, your adapter is under $200 (can't post the price on a public board).



Thats nice to have a $300 computer that does that; I personally prefer the $40 bracket on my 700 that does the same thing; but the baumannator works very nicely too. Ask Mark about the TV system he has.

As far as the first gear difference being minimal,iIts as minimal as going from 3.88's to 4.11's - which many people pay money for. Its significant if you have a heavy vehicle, big tires, want acceleration off the line, or want to crawl slowly. %)

I have 3.06 first gear, 2.6 STR converter, 5.13 gears, and a 4.3 Atlas with 35" street tires; and I STILL would like to be lower many times.




The point is, I can get a 700 built for me for $1k with NO core charge, AND a warranty. Where can you get a 4r70w for $1k out the door with a warranty?

Most people who invest in a large conversion like this would like a warranty too; not just a backyard transmission that may or may not last. If we're counting junkyard or OEM transmissions out of the "good" years of 700's, I can get you by for a lot cheaper; but you won't have a warranty.

The cost difference here is not minimal; and I'm not trashing the 4r70w, but to say they cost the same is completely incorrect.



That's not exactly true either; there's a whole set of articles on TCCOA from jerry wrobleski (sp?), who is an engineer at ford; he designed most of the EEC programming. While the mods are not too expensive, I wouldn't say that the 4r is world class out of the box. It's NOT bulletproof by any means; I've seen more than a few blown in stock vehicles, most recently at an autocross event (low speed twisties).



???? Do you know anything about the 700, or are you making this up as you go? I literally have to loosen 1 set screw, move a cam one way or another, and tighten it again. It takes all of 15 seconds. I don't mean to sound harsh, but your post is NOT correct.



It is. But it depends on how much you NEED; someone with a stock 5.0 doesn't need the trans that you have Mark; they need much less. So tell you what, lets get you one of the lower transmissions, and you just send that stroker on my way, and I'll send you a good running 5.0, ok? ;D



Which is exactly what I can change for a whopping $40. And your computer costs $300.



Its minimal for you because you're running small tires. Try running 35" plus tires with rollcages, bumpers, winches, and extra gear and getting that rig moving.

And the converter DOES make a big difference; but by your rationale, we should just run 3:55 gears in the axles and buy a nice converter. And a better converter comes at the expense of HEAT; lower gear ratios don't have that effect.



Man, I have sold a LOT of kits; and done a lot of conversions. And NOT ONE person has opted for the sloppy old fashioned shifter assembly, when they can have a durable and more functional shifter for $200 or less. It's not that it can't be done, but it's more trouble and time to make that work then it is to just buy a cable mounted shifter that you can mount ANYWHERE, that will have the detents in the correct position every time. I personally don't want my investment being ruined because my old shifter was improperly placing the detent 30% past 3rd gear. To each their own though; it is cheaper to go that way.



They do fit fine. The only problems I've had so far were custom long tubes by Kooks headers, that were designed to wrap very tightly around the bellhousing on a C4.



It depends on how you have it built; I conservatively estimate Mark's would handle 600hp/600 ft/lbs. It runs about $1200 IIRC for that configuration, with 5 pinion planetaries front and rear, hardened input shafts, etc. If you don't have that kind of power, you definitely don't need all those goodies. But Mark has a TON of low end torque at low RPM's.

Like I said before, I don't care which way you go; but you should at least have the right information to decide from. My host is switching, as are the domains, so the new site is mostly up at 700r4inaford.com; some links are broken though.

HTH

 

[mlogan24]

OK-as eloquent as Kincade's response was -NEW RULE-

Do not quote all of his post when you reply ;D My scroll wheel finger is getting tired.

Oh yeah-4R70W's rule!!! 700R4's suck!!! Just thought I'd fight this the way I did in third grade ;D

 

[Mark]

About time you chimed in on this Kincade! ;D
I am not a good orator (no snickers please). Some people have made their decisions, can't go back, and don't want to admit there may have been a better alternative.

 

[Kincade]

Very interesting reply Kincade. This definitely has me rethinking my decision to go with the 4r70W. The cost of the adapters that I have heard to use the 700R4 is something like $400 for the engine adapter and $350 for the rear, but if you do the atlas it is my understanding that you will NOT need an adapter to connect the transmission to the transfer case. Is that incorrect?

Jate; The adapters prices you have aren't correct, but I can't post anything other than retail on a public message board; please drop me an email or PM me offline for my prices.

If you use a 4wd 700r4, you only need an inexpensive adapter casting instead of a whole adapter kit; it's 3 5/8" long, and is under $200. Again, PM me for the price.

I can buy a new 4R70W for a 5.0 98 - 2000 explorer/mountaineer for $950 without a core charge and this includes shipping, but no warranty. Since it is brand new, not rebuilt, I would not be too concerned. To add the needed shift kit it is an extra $150. This puts the cost of the 4R70W at $1,100 without a computer or harness. Those both cost about $550. So, the all in cost is $1,650 for the tranny, computer and harness. This assumes the tranny will mate up to the Atlas without an adapter.

Do those prices include a converter?

You'll still need the stock adapter for the trans, or you'll need to purchase one; if you go this route, try to get the stock one.

If the cost to buy and build the stout 700R4 is $1,200, the adapter for the engine is $400, the bracket for the column is $50 that puts the total there at $1,650. So that puts it at roughly a wash in terms of cost. So, that leads me to the question of which one is a better transmission? I think I calculated that in overdrive with my 35" tires and 4.22 gears I would be turning about 1,500 rpms at 60 mph.

Given this analysis would you rather have an older 700R4 built well with no computer control (it seems the computer would be a plus, but I don't know this for sure) or a more modern computer controlled 4R70W with less desirable 1st and 4th gearing. Opinions????

Check out the pricing of the 700's at 700r4.com; this is who I use almost exclusively. The Raptor transmissions are supposed to be nice as well, and there are usually many local builders that are compenant to build 'em right.

Better transmission?? I don't know that I can tell you that; it's really a matter of opinion, and you already know mine. ;D

As far as age, that has nothing to do with it; they're both new, for all intents and purposes. For me, if I can get the same result without mucking with a computer, then that's the way i'll go. Simple is always better in my book. And honestly, my primary consideration IS gearing. I maintain that there is a big difference between 3.06 and 2.84, and too deep of an overdrive is almost unuseable. Hell, my overdrive right now is barely usable, I can't imagine if it were any deeper.

 

[BwoncoHowie]

Just to clarify something...
AOD=Ford automatic overdrive produced from 1980-1993, 1987-up being the most desirable to build for custom applications (does not require electronics to function properly).
AODE= electronically controlled with AOD gear ratios
AODEW=AODE with a wide ratio gearset
4R70W=AODEW with more clutches

The W designates the trans with the wide ratio gearset, which will have a lower 1st gear and a taller overdrive. I recommend running synthetic fluid in all the above.

 

[jate]

Well, I took the plunge and bought a 4R70W. I got an awesome deal on it - $700 brand new with torque converter. I ordered a computer, harness and valve body kit from Baumann. I am going to put in a newly rebuilt/stroked 351w with ford EFI from a 92 mustang and an Atlas II at the same time. Big project! I plan to pull the tub and body off to blast and paint them so installing should be considerably easier. So, for you guys who have been through this before, what would you recommend that I consider or think about before starting the project. Will my column shift work okay? I would rather not go to a floor shift unless it is a much better setup. I am either going to buy the wiring harness for the EFI from Ryan @ fordfuelinjection.com or the FMS harness and sensors. And the harness for the tranny I already bought from Baumann. Are there any "gotchas" in hooking the two together?

Any insight here would be appreciated!

 

[Kincade]

I'd like to recommend that you check with your builder on synthetic fluid; the 700 builder I use does NOT recommend using synthetic under any circumstances; as do a few ford builders I know. All recommend using a good quality fluid and changing often.

Jate - sounds like you got a great deal! I think you'll be happy with it. Is it a 2 or 4wd model?

If you need adapters, drop me an email or PM; I'd be happy to help you out.

As I said before, I wouldn't go with a column shift unless that's a goal of yours; the floor mounted shifter IS much better; you can insure you hit each detent exactly, mount the shifter anywhere you want, and get exactly the action you want. Every column shifter i've seen is sloppy and tends to not hit each gear correctly.

 

[jate]

Thanks Kincade. I was amazed at the price I got on it. I was on the fence between it and the 700. The price gave me a hard push. I will indeed let you know on the adapters. Though I think I am going to have Mt. Logan do the work since they have done all the work on my rig up to this point. In which case I am sure they will want to order them. I doubt they will come close to the price you quoted me, but it will be easier to have the deal with it all. Thanks for all of the advice. I hope we can bump into each other around SLC!

 

[BwoncoHowie]

I'd like to recommend that you check with your builder on synthetic fluid; the 700 builder I use does NOT recommend using synthetic under any circumstances; as do a few ford builders I know. All recommend using a good quality fluid and changing often.

Jate - sounds like you got a great deal! I think you'll be happy with it. Is it a 2 or 4wd model?

If you need adapters, drop me an email or PM; I'd be happy to help you out.

As I said before, I wouldn't go with a column shift unless that's a goal of yours; the floor mounted shifter IS much better; you can insure you hit each detent exactly, mount the shifter anywhere you want, and get exactly the action you want. Every column shifter i've seen is sloppy and tends to not hit each gear correctly.

I think the advice I offer regarding Ford automatic transmissions is pretty reliable. I'm sure you have a lot to offer and contribute to this board in your line of specialty. With that I will say this...

1) I have rebuilt several dozen 4R70W transmissions for the local police department here and we have come to the conclusion that Synthetic lubricants, (when compared with regular petroleum based products) will significantly increase the life of the planetary gearset as well as bushing life and thrust bearings in all transmissions in the AOD family.

2) I have performed several conversions using the stock column shifter and have had no problems with detent locations as long as the correct shift lever is installed on the transmission. ~BH

 

[jate]

I think the advice I offer regarding Ford automatic transmissions is pretty reliable. I'm sure you have a lot to offer and contribute to this board in your line of specialty. With that I will say this...

1) I have rebuilt several dozen 4R70W transmissions for the local police department here and we have come to the conclusion that Synthetic lubricants, (when compared with regular petroleum based products) will significantly increase the life of the planetary gearset as well as bushing life and thrust bearings in all transmissions in the AOD family.

2) I have performed several conversions using the stock column shifter and have had no problems with detent locations as long as the correct shift lever is installed on the transmission. ~BH

When you say "correct shift lever" what do you mean? Is there a specific one I should make sure I have?

 

[Mark]

1) I have rebuilt several dozen 4R70W transmissions for the local police department here and we have come to the conclusion that Synthetic lubricants, (when compared with regular petroleum based products) will significantly increase the life of the planetary gearset as well as bushing life and thrust bearings in all transmissions in the AOD family.
~BH

I also prefer synthetics, but what Kincade said is true - some builders - I do not know why - do ask you not to use synthetics and will void your warranty with them if you do. That is why you should check with the builder.