• Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!
    If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.

Brake help needed

Bronco1294

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2016
Messages
66
I'm at my wits end with the brakes. I've completely rebuilt the rear drums, and front discs. New MC as well, bench bled- twice. I cannot get braking power at all- barely stops. I'm out of ideas. No leaks or holes in the system either. Rear braked adjusted. It's still unsafe to drive. Anybody???

-Desperate to get to SuperCelÂ…
 

67sport

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
355
Loc.
Vancouver Island, Canada
Wow. Sorry to hear, but that's a lot to unpack. I may not be able to help, but let's get the info out so we can.
What year.? Rear axle - stock or modified? Modified how?
Front disc brakes. Stock, or what conversion?
Brake lines - new, original, rubber lines replaced?
Master cylinder - what size bore?
Does it have a booster? Stock, aftermarket, which aftermarket?
Bench bled-closed loop or open? I have success with open, lots will say closed is better?
Proprtiining valve, or h block-new or original?
Give us the info, guys will help!

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 

67sport

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
355
Loc.
Vancouver Island, Canada
Here are some generic suggestions which may or may not be relevant.
The new calipers on the front-is the bleeder screw pointed up?
When bleeding the system, it goes passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front-correct? Always ensuring the level in the master cylinder stays topped up?
When you installed the new master-the pushrod that comes through the firewall, or from the booster, should bottom out in the master cylinder about 1/8 of an inch before the body of the master hits the booster, correct? (Need some preload there, might be able to do better, but it'll get them working)
Hope any of this helps, apologies if this is stuff you already know.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
B

Bronco1294

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2016
Messages
66
Thanks. 67Sport- all that is correct, yes.

75, stock rear axle, D44 front, WH disc conversion (GM) Newer stainless brake lines with stainless braided extensions, WH booster, New MC 1.125 bore(WH HD) bench bled recirculating twice, pushrod hits MC almost immediately. Newer Hblock prop valve.
 

savage

Contributor
Bronco Nut
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
2,482
Loc.
Renton
Now when I did a chevy disk brake conversion on my 74 from Tom's bronco, in the instructions you had to grind your steering knuckles for th calipers to clear. I'm not sure if the WH is different or the same.
 

67sport

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
355
Loc.
Vancouver Island, Canada
Now when I did a chevy disk brake conversion on my 74 from Tom's bronco, in the instructions you had to grind your steering knuckles for th calipers to clear. I'm not sure if the WH is different or the same.
That's worth confirming as well.

Aren't there also occasional issues depending on the prop valve used, that the shuttle can shift while bleeding and cause these symptoms? The 2 I've done worked, so I never needed to learn about that specifically. There are threads about it.

Hopefully Paul or one of the other experts can provide specifics on when that occurs. There are also threads about large bore MC's causing a soft pedal, but if it's all part of a WH kit, I would think it was sized to work.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
B

Bronco1294

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2016
Messages
66
Yeah the knuckles are clearanced for the calipers. This thing is killing me…
 

SHX669

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
1,997
Some MCs have a " check valve " in the outlet to keep a small amount of pressure on -- hmm - drums I think - or disk ?? - because that particular style ( disk or drum) has more travel than the other and the style with the shortest travel wiil bottom out 1st . The " check " is easy to remove and or reinstall . Hopefully one of the experts will help out here .
Oh - Ive bought MCs supposedly for EBs that had both outlets with check valves , one outlet with check valve and no check on either outlet .
 

Rustytruck

Bronco Guru
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Messages
10,875
the push rod between the master cylinder need a small gap between the master cylinder and the booster. like 1/32" of an inch. if the master cylinder doesnt retract all the way it cant pick up fluid from the resiviour and then pressure rise it. Jack up the truck all four wheels off the ground. have someone press the brake peddle for you as the lightly press the brake rotate the wheel by hand and see if the brakes grab or not. that will point out where the trouble lyes. the new brake proportion does it need to be released to bleed the brakes? some need a pin pulled out during bleeding.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,088
Bronco1294, I did not see if you described your exact symptoms. Just that there is "no power" but not whether or not you have a firm or soft pedal. Or even if firm, whether or not it's got longer travel than before.
Sounds like it's not going to the floor because you said you had little to no gap between the master and booster. But is it mushy?

If firm, is it just that you have no power? Personally I think a 1" master is better than a 1.125" when used with either no booster, or a vacuum booster. And who's booster are you using? Old or new?
Do you know what brake pads you have? My first set wouldn't stop to save it's life for the first couple of applications, but once heated up had at least a little bit of stopping power.
The vacuum boosters are not all that strong to begin with, and some are worse than others. And of those, using the larger master would be contributing to the less than powerful feel.

And then there is engine vacuum. Do you know what yours is providing? Is it a stock, stock-ish, or higher performance engine?

Paul
 

67sport

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2010
Messages
355
Loc.
Vancouver Island, Canada
the push rod between the master cylinder need a small gap between the master cylinder and the booster. like 1/32" of an inch. if the master cylinder doesnt retract all the way it cant pick up fluid from the resiviour and then pressure rise it. Jack up the truck all four wheels off the ground. have someone press the brake peddle for you as the lightly press the brake rotate the wheel by hand and see if the brakes grab or not. that will point out where the trouble lyes. the new brake proportion does it need to be released to bleed the brakes? some need a pin pulled out during bleeding.


Thanks for clarifying Rusty. I think I indicated an interference fit between pushrod and master. Sounds like it ought to be a non-interference fit.
 

Apogee

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2005
Messages
6,060
A lot of good info, but I'm not clear on what the symptoms are at this point other than little to no brake torque.

1. What's the pedal feel? High and firm, low and soft, somewhere in between?

2. When bleeding the brakes at each corner, do you get a nice squirt of fluid when you crack the bleed screws or is it a pathetic little dribble?

3. You mentioned doing a recirculation type bench bleed on the master cylinder, which is fine, but doesn't provide any positive feedback as to the condition of the MC. If you plug both outlet ports and test the MC, you can at least determine whether the MC is good or not. Once both ports are plugged, the MC should hydraulically lock as soon as the seals on the pistons cover the ports into the reservoirs...if it doesn't, then it's still got air in it or one or more seals are internally bypassing fluid. Stroking the piston and allowing it to fully return to the snap ring is a plugged-port bleed, which you should do until the unit hydraulically locks when you try to stroke it. Once that has been achieved, apply moderate force to the piston and hold it for a 20-count, noting whether the pedal (or piston if by hand) sinks over time. If it does, rebuild or replace the MC, as it's internally bypassing fluid and DOA.

4. Once you have a bleed MC on the firewall, connect the rear brake circuit and bleed it. If you have a combination valve with a pin to override the shuttle valve/switch, then make sure you do that since you won't be getting pressure to both sides of the valve. Some companies offer a plastic tool that you screw into the electric switch port that pins the shuttle into place.

5. Once you have a good pedal with the rear brakes only, connect the front brake circuit to the MC and bleed it just like you did the rears until you get a good pedal. Doing one circuit at a time reduces the number of variables in the system at any given time and simplifies troubleshooting if there's an issue.

Tobin
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,088
Thanks for clarifying Rusty. I think I indicated an interference fit between pushrod and master. Sounds like it ought to be a non-interference fit.

Correct. By the book there is a tiny gap between the back of the piston and the tip of the rod. But that gap is very small because any more and the pedal travel is too much.
However, too tight and you will run into the brakes staying applied after awhile. I've run them successfully with a teeny tiny bit of interference, but it was a VERY small interference fit and was frankly not correct so I changed it anyway.
Didn't want the brakes sticking on at an inopportune moment.

It should not effect your braking power though, either way.

Paul
 
Top