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DIY transmission rebuild times?

gclauson

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Jr. Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
166
I have been running an NV4500 in my Bronco for over ten years. It now needs some love- new seals and gaskets plus the synchros are getting soft.

I also have a 4R70W that I am considering swapping into the truck.

I need to decide which way to go and the rebuilding time is a key input to my decision. I have good mechanical knowledge and tools and have rebuilt manual transmissions before, but not an automatic, but seems like the 4R70W is quite user-friendly, so that does not concern me. But I don't have a zillion free hours to spend, so if one is much faster than the other, that is good for me to know.

Questions for people that have undertaken rebuilding either transmission:
1. How many hours did it take you to do the full rebuild from tearing it apart to completely reassembled? E.g. 8 hours, 20 hours, 40 hours?
2. Can the NV4500 to be rebuilt w/o purchasing expensive, specialized tools?

Gary
 

DirtDonk

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Nov 3, 2003
Messages
47,654
Not that this would help with the leaks, but have you tried changing the lubricant lately? How many miles on the current lube? How many on the transmission overall, if known?
While this is not scientific by any means, in older, simpler manual transmissions an oil change sometimes breathes new life into it.

Members jamesroney and Lars have been using 4500's for years as well, but I think only James has rebuilt a 4500. Or gone through them at least. Can't say what was done during the R&R.
But anyone that's done it with all the right tools is not going to be the same as a first-timer I would not think.

Interested to hear others' comments on what tools might be needed. Curious even though I don't foresee needing any of them myself, anytime soon.
Oh, but don't get James started on the argument of whether you should switch to an automatic! Although he's seeing some value in the 4R70w now and then, he definitely still leans into the "forever-manual" side of life. :D

Good luck.

Paul
 
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gclauson

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Hi Paul,
I did not change the lube, but it only had about 12k miles on it. But the trans was used and had about 80k miles when I bought it.

I'll wait to see if @jamesroney or anyone else responds to either/both rebuild questions!

Actually, I love manuals and am very hesitant to get rid of it, but for snow bashing, and needing to quickly move from 1st to reverse and back, that shift pattern is horrid! I looked at the 4050 transmission, but like most/all 5 speeds, it has the same pattern as the NV4500.

Thanks!
 

jamesroney

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Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,740
Loc.
Fremont, CA
Not that this would help with the leaks, but have you tried changing the lubricant lately? How many miles on the current lube? How many on the transmission overall, if known?
While this is not scientific by any means, in older, simpler manual transmissions an oil change sometimes breathes new life into it.

Members jamesroney and Lars have been using 4500's for years as well, but I think only James has rebuilt a 4500. Or gone through them at least. Can't say what was done during the R&R.
But anyone that's done it with all the right tools is not going to be the same as a first-timer I would not think.

Interested to hear others' comments on what tools might be needed. Curious even though I don't foresee needing any of them myself, anytime soon.
Oh, but don't get James started on the argument of whether you should switch to an automatic! Although he's seeing some value in the 4R70w now and then, he definitely still leans into the "forever-manual" side of life. :D

Good luck.

Paul
That is a slight mis-charaterization of my position on automatics. I do not see value in a Bronco for an AOD, or it's electronically controlled brother, the AODE, or the offspring that leaked from it's loins...the 4R70W. I apologize for any confusion. It is a piece of shit, and I hate it. (your mileage may vary...)

I did, for almost a week...start to find value in the ZF 6HP26. @nvrstuk calls it a 6R80. It is a technical advancement over previous automatics, and uses a "LePeletier" gear train, which is Simpson (c6) front planetary in combination with a Ravigneaux (FMX) rear planetary. This provides a vastly less complicated, with way fewer parts, and vastly more durable 6 speed gear train. Tragically, it is scheduled with electronically controlled solenoids...so internal leaks and seal failures WILL happen. Millions of miles in BMW's, Audi's and a random Kia prove that the design is robust. (it is the foundation for all 6R Ford boxes, and the 6L series from GM, and Aisin has one too) Suffice to say that the 6R80 is an elegant and competent beast, controlled by a blind mouse with a whip. I don't like to credit LePeletier for the design, because he really didn't invent anything. And he's French. And the french are always inventing shit that's already been invented. Then patenting it. Then suing in French courts for infringement. But he WAS the first to integrate both planetary systems in the same box. Although it took a consortium of auto makers to pay ZF to implement....but we are getting off topic. I was forced to like the 6R80 because I was doing a Coyote swap, and there are no good Manual transmission 4x4 Coyote choices.

I do like the Allison AT545 series transmissions. And I am developing a fondness for the robustness of the Allison 1000. But neither of those can fit into a Bronco. (But I might put one behind my 5.9 Cummins the next time this 47RH takes a dump.)

So before anyone misinterprets what I am saying...the definition of "like" vs "hate" must be taken in context. A "choice" by it's definition, must be a selection between competing alternatives. If there is no reasonable alternative...then you do not have a "choice." I don't particularly "like" to take a crap. But in the absence of reasonable alternatives... I am forced to like it. I could choose to hate it...but that would be pointless. So I choose to like it. I don't throw a party and invite all my friends to participate, but in the end, (see what I did there?) it's all about choices between reasonable alternatives.

So, do I like the 4R70W, and do I see value? Sometimes, maybe for YOU. But not for me. Do I like it? Sure...as much as I like taking a dump.

With the 4R70W, you DO have choices. And the best 4R70W is called a 6R80. (you can turn off two gears, and the 6R is still better than the 4R70W) But this discussion requires a history lesson, and a long diatribe about the virtues of stick vs manual, and that's not the point of this thread. It will no doubt devolve into a "manual vs auto" discussion...but there's plenty of that available in the "search" function. Gotta go.
 
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jamesroney

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Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
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Fremont, CA
I have been running an NV4500 in my Bronco for over ten years. It now needs some love- new seals and gaskets plus the synchros are getting soft.

I also have a 4R70W that I am considering swapping into the truck.

I need to decide which way to go and the rebuilding time is a key input to my decision. I have good mechanical knowledge and tools and have rebuilt manual transmissions before, but not an automatic, but seems like the 4R70W is quite user-friendly, so that does not concern me. But I don't have a zillion free hours to spend, so if one is much faster than the other, that is good for me to know.

Questions for people that have undertaken rebuilding either transmission:
1. How many hours did it take you to do the full rebuild from tearing it apart to completely reassembled? E.g. 8 hours, 20 hours, 40 hours?
2. Can the NV4500 to be rebuilt w/o purchasing expensive, specialized tools?

Gary
1. Flat rate on a 4R70W rebuild? That's a funny question. If it's sitting on the bench, maybe about 1.5 hours to disassemble, and another 3 hours to build it, and usually overnight in the parts washer to clean it. Add an hour if you want the valve body done. You can work the problem backwards, and figure it's $1200-$1500 for a rebuild, at $175/hr shop rate, so 8-9 hours of labor. But someone has to clean it, and that takes time. If you don't have a parts washer, and you don't have the right tools, then it takes more time. If someone asks you to put a shift kit in it, and you mix up the old parts with new parts, and then drop them on the floor, then it takes longer. You also end up spending a LOT of time changing stuff that doesn't need changing. (because you are there...) If I'm rebuilding it for ME, I can guarantee you that I'm re-using assemblies and clutch packs. If I'm rebuilding it for YOU, I have no choice but to replace everything. So a rebuild is not = a rebuild.
1a. Flat rate on a NV4500? More tricky. Nobody rebuilds an NV4500 unless there is something WRONG. So if there is something wrong, then you can pretty much guarantee that you will be buying "hard parts." So the rebuild takes an hour to pull apart, and the an hour trying to figure out what went wrong, then an hour arguing with the owner about whether it's worth fixing, then an hour ordering parts, then an hour cleaning and storing all the parts, then 10 days waiting for Blumenthals to send me parts, then an hour finding all the parts again, then 2 hours to build the sub-assemblies, and an hour to slap it together. But if it's just installing a set of carbon fiber synchros and a bearing kit...that's easy in an afternoon. But to the question of why? If it had the 5th gear nut fall off, and you drove it for a month like that, and you wasted the input shaft and the countershaft because you lost thrust, then it takes a lot longer to rebuild...because I have to convince you to go get another one.

2. For me, yes. For you...maybe. I have a shop full of expensive, un-specialized tools. So I don't even know when I'm using something you don't have. I have at least 30 sets of snap ring pliers. Are those specialized? maybe. Expensive, yes. Necessary? Maybe not. I think there's only one snap ring in an NV4500. You could pry it off with a couple of screwdrivers. But there's the 5th gear nut. OTC sells a special spanner socket for that. I don't own it. So I'm gonna say: "yes." The NV4500 can be rebuilt without special tools. As long as you have a bearing separator, and a press. And as long as it isn't an early 6.34 Chevy transmission. Even then, if you sacrifice the rear bearing, It will cost you $35. but you don't need the tool.

The NV4500 is an excellent manual transmission that will outlive your Bronco. A million miles is not unheard of. If yours is worn out, you are doing something wrong. If you own a Cummins, and you are pulling a heavy load, and you drive it on the highway in 5th gear, then you deserve to pay for a broken transmission. If you don't like the way it shifts in your Bronco, change your driving technique. If you put the wrong oil in it...that's that Achilles heel.

I will of course buy your dead NV4500 if you are local. But if you are local, we can rebuild it in an afternoon. Usually a couple of large pizzas and a case of beer will get it done. But I'm not cleaning it. That's on you.
 

Speedrdr

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Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
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That is a slight mis-charaterization of my position on automatics. I do not see value in a Bronco for an AOD, or it's electronically controlled brother, the AODE, or the offspring that leaked from i
That is a slight mis-charaterization of my position on automatics. I do not see value in a Bronco for an AOD, or its electronically controlled brother, the AODE, or the offspring that leaked from its loins...the 4R70W. I apologize for any confusion. It is a piece of shit, and I hate it. (your mileage may vary...)
@jamesroney, come on, man. Tell us how you REALLY feel. 🤣🤣🤣

Randy
 

Speedrdr

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Learning Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,254
Loc.
Paris, MS
@jamesroney , I’m just a 3 on a tree kind of guy. Lol. I’m driving a 2013 F-150 with the…whatever automatic transmission it has. The closest I’ve come to transmission change was to put a Duff floor shift in my ‘72 EB. Not a fan of automatics.

Randy
 

jamesroney

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Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,740
Loc.
Fremont, CA
@jamesroney , I’m just a 3 on a tree kind of guy. Lol. I’m driving a 2013 F-150 with the…whatever automatic transmission it has. The closest I’ve come to transmission change was to put a Duff floor shift in my ‘72 EB. Not a fan of automatics.

Randy
We are on the same team! I’m 3 on the tree, or 5 on the floor! Manual transmission for the win!
 

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gclauson

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Messages
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1. Flat rate on a 4R70W rebuild? That's a funny question. If it's sitting on the bench, maybe about 1.5 hours to disassemble, and another 3 hours to build it, and usually overnight in the parts washer to clean it. Add an hour if you want the valve body done. You can work the problem backwards, and figure it's $1200-$1500 for a rebuild, at $175/hr shop rate, so 8-9 hours of labor. But someone has to clean it, and that takes time. If you don't have a parts washer, and you don't have the right tools, then it takes more time. If someone asks you to put a shift kit in it, and you mix up the old parts with new parts, and then drop them on the floor, then it takes longer. You also end up spending a LOT of time changing stuff that doesn't need changing. (because you are there...) If I'm rebuilding it for ME, I can guarantee you that I'm re-using assemblies and clutch packs. If I'm rebuilding it for YOU, I have no choice but to replace everything. So a rebuild is not = a rebuild.
1a. Flat rate on a NV4500? More tricky. Nobody rebuilds an NV4500 unless there is something WRONG. So if there is something wrong, then you can pretty much guarantee that you will be buying "hard parts." So the rebuild takes an hour to pull apart, and the an hour trying to figure out what went wrong, then an hour arguing with the owner about whether it's worth fixing, then an hour ordering parts, then an hour cleaning and storing all the parts, then 10 days waiting for Blumenthals to send me parts, then an hour finding all the parts again, then 2 hours to build the sub-assemblies, and an hour to slap it together. But if it's just installing a set of carbon fiber synchros and a bearing kit...that's easy in an afternoon. But to the question of why? If it had the 5th gear nut fall off, and you drove it for a month like that, and you wasted the input shaft and the countershaft because you lost thrust, then it takes a lot longer to rebuild...because I have to convince you to go get another one.

2. For me, yes. For you...maybe. I have a shop full of expensive, un-specialized tools. So I don't even know when I'm using something you don't have. I have at least 30 sets of snap ring pliers. Are those specialized? maybe. Expensive, yes. Necessary? Maybe not. I think there's only one snap ring in an NV4500. You could pry it off with a couple of screwdrivers. But there's the 5th gear nut. OTC sells a special spanner socket for that. I don't own it. So I'm gonna say: "yes." The NV4500 can be rebuilt without special tools. As long as you have a bearing separator, and a press. And as long as it isn't an early 6.34 Chevy transmission. Even then, if you sacrifice the rear bearing, It will cost you $35. but you don't need the tool.

The NV4500 is an excellent manual transmission that will outlive your Bronco. A million miles is not unheard of. If yours is worn out, you are doing something wrong. If you own a Cummins, and you are pulling a heavy load, and you drive it on the highway in 5th gear, then you deserve to pay for a broken transmission. If you don't like the way it shifts in your Bronco, change your driving technique. If you put the wrong oil in it...that's that Achilles heel.

I will of course buy your dead NV4500 if you are local. But if you are local, we can rebuild it in an afternoon. Usually a couple of large pizzas and a case of beer will get it done. But I'm not cleaning it. That's on you.

James,
Thanks for great info! Only thing wrong with NV is the leaks and synchros are not too happy (have to shift slow or they crunch). Although I have never driven another NV; maybe they all do that?

I do have several snap ring pliers, bearing separators, pullers, and a press.

I have wondered about the lube- I used an Amsoil product that is supposed to be the correct replacement for the special oil that Dodge and GM sell. Maybe it is not *really* good?

I'd take you up on the rebuild help, but I left San Jose in 1988 ;^)

Looks like I should be able to either one over a weekend, which doesn't sound too bad. Cleaning won't be too bad- I just have to un-bury my solvent tank and put fresh solvent in it.

Thanks again!
 

jamesroney

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Messages
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Fremont, CA
Only thing wrong with NV is the leaks and synchros are not too happy (have to shift slow or they crunch). Although I have never driven another NV; maybe they all do that?
They don't all do that. Sounds like yours is ready for a new set of synchros and a seal kit. They are mostly glued together, so no gaskets.

There are two types of replacement synchros. The original carbon fiber lined ones, and all brass. I am convinced that the incorrect gear oil will eat the carbon fiber adhesive and cause de-bonding. Then you get balky shifting. The full bronze ones are supposed to fix that, but unfortunately there is no full bronze balking ring for the 1-2 synchro. So I'm not sure how that is supposed to work.

There is a big sticker on the side of the transmission that says to use only Castrol Syntorq oil, and then it gives the only two OEM part numbers from Dodge and GM. There's even a big warning tag on the fill plug. And yet...somehow these things end up with the wrong lubricant inside.

I don't know if the RedLine MT-85 is EXACTLY the same as the GM 12346190 but I bought some for the first time last month. I've built about 20 of these things, and never had trouble getting oil from the dealer. But I'm usually spending someone else's money. So I insist on factory GM oil. But that part number got superceded, and there's a new Delco number that just went obsolete at my local parts house. So I bought some RedLine for the first time. OK, I didn't actually "buy" it...but I "got" some Redline. I have for sure used the AmsOil MTF stuff, and the label makes me nervous. At least the RedLine MT-85 has the word "NV4500" on the bottle.

You can get a rebuild kit for under $200 and you can fix it on a Saturday. For whatever reason, GM parts for an MT-8 transmission are cheaper and more available. It boggles my mind, because it's the same exact transmission. You can call me if you get stuck, and I can help you. The whole reason for installing a bomb-proof tranny is won't break, and you can service it for peanuts. So throw a set of synchros in it, and away you go! Normally I tell people to re-use the oil. It doesn't wear out, and it doesn't go bad. The hardest part of the whole job is getting it lifted on to the bench.
 
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gclauson

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James,
Thanks! I think I'll go with the NV rebuild. As you said, likely just synchros and seals, and your info on the need for no special tools is the clincher!

Do you have a recommendation on where to purchase the parts? Or just go to my friendly Chevy dealer?

I just hope I don't herniate myself lifting it onto the workbench!

And just to make sure that it wasn't a lube problem, I'll buy the correct Mopar or GM lube this time.

Gary
 
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