Duff 4-Link Street Version

[Monster Mike]

Mike, I don’t mean to start a tit for tat argument. But that bronco had already left the building when I was there but I am glad they fixed the issues before it went to auction. The truck that was said to have drive ability issues was being loaded up for delivery.

Because a builder is buying more of the kits doesn’t necessarily mean they are happy with the kit but might mean it’s convenient.

I am not trying to dig the kit at all. And
If I needed a 4link kit I would look at buying the duff kit out of a bolt on convenience type thing as opposed to buying my own parts and starting from scratch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't have any interest in any argument with anyone ever. I just want to deal in facts and logic and I want our parts to work for our customers. If they don't, we want to know so we can fix the problem. Whether it be with our part, your Bronco or the way it was installed.

I don't know who you talked to and I don't know what bronco was being discussed but this is what I do know. The Ryan Blaney Bronco that sold at Barrett Jackson auction in Scottsdale, AZ for charity a couple weeks ago was outfitted with our Monster street 4 link. It was in and out of Gateway 4-5 times in the last 4 months. They were building it as they were touring it so the schedule was hectic and gave them very little time to dial it in or even road test it while it was being toured. The shop foreman had 3 or 4 concerns/issues initially with the build but we worked though all of them and he was very happy with it before it left their shop for the last time headed for Scottsdale. I was actually playing tour guide the weekend of the auction for him and his wife up in Gatlinburg. That was his gift to him and his wife for a job well done and believe me he needed the mini vaca after that build! He told me out of all the Bronco's that they have built and that have left his shop with 4 link suspension that Blaney's was his favorite and he said after they got it all dialed in with the right shocks it was an absolute joy to drive. I can't say that the owner feels the same because I honestly don't know. I do believe that the owner listens to his team though and I think that is why they are buying more systems. I get convenience can play into it but this industry has so many options and Gateway stayed in contact the whole time it was being built so I have a hard time believing that they are settling for convenience.

Now the community will get to see what a handful of other members on here think about our kit and get to hear their feedback too but keep in mind, we aren't guessing on a brand new product here. We have a great off road 4 link system out there already that's been around since 2007 that this new street 4 link is very similar too. People and builders willing to drop serious coin on their bronco's want to buy from a company that has this figured out and is building a quality product. We are here to be that company and we are thrilled to offer the next evolution of that system that is designed to be enjoyed on the street but is in no way a slouch off road.

Please don't think I am taking any offense to anything you are saying here. To me, this is just a healthy constructive conversation between a group of Bronco enthusiast and the vendors that make the parts for them. You are reporting what you know and I am reporting what I know.

The future is bright for Bronco's & their owners. Suzy and I are excited to be part of that and help the industry anyway we can.

MM

 

[bigmuddy]

Great response Mike and I wish you the best of business going forward!

Be well.

 

[jasonmcc]

Well, we ran into a little problem with the heims for the sway bar. Instructions say to be sure to mount them as pictured (heims on the inside). Well, when you do that they hit the bottom links (and first scratches/gouges to the powdercoat, lol) I called JD twice with no callback and was told they only talk via email now. So I gave them my email and guess what...no email from them ever received. So realizing I had to figure this out on my own I went back and looked at the instructions and they definitely have them on the inside. Then when I went and looked at the pics they have on their website for the street 4-link they have them on the outside. I assume I have it fixed now, psh. Anyone know any reason they shouldn't go on the outside?

 

[Montoya]

Anyone know any reason they shouldn't go on the outside?

I can't think of any reason to run them inside rather than outside. It shouldn't affect the geometry enough to make any difference.

I bet if you really want them there you could potentially modify the holes a little bit and use flat head screws but I see no reason for it.

 

[68ford]

In that last pic, it looks like the upper links may contact the sway bar before bottoming out? Or is suspension travel limited with a extended bumpstop to prevent that?

 

[Monster Mike]

Well, we ran into a little problem with the heims for the sway bar. Instructions say to be sure to mount them as pictured (heims on the inside). Well, when you do that they hit the bottom links (and first scratches/gouges to the powdercoat, lol) I called JD twice with no callback and was told they only talk via email now. So I gave them my email and guess what...no email from them ever received. So realizing I had to figure this out on my own I went back and looked at the instructions and they definitely have them on the inside. Then when I went and looked at the pics they have on their website for the street 4-link they have them on the outside. I assume I have it fixed now, psh. Anyone know any reason they shouldn't go on the outside?

Hey Jason. I can help you.

I looked for your emails through tech@dufftuff.com and sales@dufftuff.com and I didnt see any come through. Please forward them to me at monstermike@dufftuff.com and I will see what happened. You are correct that we are putting all tech calls as they come in a que so our tech guys have the chance to answer everyone in the correct order. We use software that helps delegate those tech calls to the appropriate person. I don't have visibility of when you called but I do see you are supposed to be called back by 6pm EST today. Since I have intercepted, you can count this as your call back. Basically what I am saying is from our side it appears we have not dropped the ball yet but maybe you disagree? This is why I am jumping in. All I want is happy customers and a system that works for us and you.

As far as the link bar goes for the sway bar, I was the one who developed that system. At the time when I did all the development and testing, the only way for the link bar to clear the Duff 70/30 shock is it had to be mounted on the inside of the lower mounting tab. If it wasn't, it would make contact with the shock under extreme articulation. I still feel like you should be able to mount it that way but what I think happened here is the mounting tab was not bent outboard enough which caused the interference issue. If you are running a smaller body shock like our new MS2020 then you can mount the link to the outside. What I think I should add to the instruction sheet is some explanation to why we do what we do and how the rules can be changed depending on what your using it for and what shocks are being used. Then customers like yourself can decide what they want to do and how much of their own testing they want to do before using it. Obviously I will also look into those mounting tabs and see if someone didn't get the bend angle right. Just a few degrees can be the difference between clearance and interference.

It's our belief and possibly yours too that customers with the intention of using this 4 link system primarily for the street will not be concerned with doing bump or flex testing. This is totally fine since we have done that leg work for you. However, if you're looking to get every inch of performance out of this system we encourage you to dial it in to your Bronco.

Hope that helps.

MM

 

[jasonmcc]

In that last pic, it looks like the upper links may contact the sway bar before bottoming out? Or is suspension travel limited with a extended bumpstop to prevent that?

I hope not! haha, no the bump stops limit it and everything looks to be fine so far.

 

[jasonmcc]

Hey Jason. I can help you.

I looked for your emails through tech@dufftuff.com and sales@dufftuff.com and I didnt see any come through. Please forward them to me at monstermike@dufftuff.com and I will see what happened. You are correct that we are putting all tech calls as they come in a que so our tech guys have the chance to answer everyone in the correct order. We use software that helps delegate those tech calls to the appropriate person. I don't have visibility of when you called but I do see you are supposed to be called back by 6pm EST today. Since I have intercepted, you can count this as your call back. Basically what I am saying is from our side it appears we have not dropped the ball yet but maybe you disagree? This is why I am jumping in. All I want is happy customers and a system that works for us and you.

As far as the link bar goes for the sway bar, I was the one who developed that system. At the time when I did all the development and testing, the only way for the link bar to clear the Duff 70/30 shock is it had to be mounted on the inside of the lower mounting tab. If it wasn't, it would make contact with the shock under extreme articulation. I still feel like you should be able to mount it that way but what I think happened here is the mounting tab was not bent outboard enough which caused the interference issue. If you are running a smaller body shock like our new MS2020 then you can mount the link to the outside. What I think I should add to the instruction sheet is some explanation to why we do what we do and how the rules can be changed depending on what your using it for and what shocks are being used. Then customers like yourself can decide what they want to do and how much of their own testing they want to do before using it. Obviously I will also look into those mounting tabs and see if someone didn't get the bend angle right. Just a few degrees can be the difference between clearance and interference.

It's our belief and possibly yours too that customers with the intention of using this 4 link system primarily for the street will not be concerned with doing bump or flex testing. This is totally fine since we have done that leg work for you. However, if you're looking to get every inch of performance out of this system we encourage you to dial it in to your Bronco.

Hope that helps.

MM

I never emailed anyone. I had an issue so I picked up the phone and called JD. They asked for my email/cell and said someone would email or call me back. I called on 2/10 and again on 2/19. You guys are usually quick to respond but I imagine things get backed up so no worries, I get it and this was my first time experiencing a no-callback from JD. As far as the instructions go.....Sure you could update the instructions for people "like me" but what would it say? "Hey, we might not have bent the tabs like they're supposed to be"? This is JD's fault, not me needing special instructions. I followed your instructions and it didn't work because of something you did, not me needing something special. Our initial thought was that the bottom tabs didn't get bent enough. I wasn't keen on removing, heating up powder-coated parts, and bending. There was no way they would clear the bottom links like they are (look at pics). That also doesn't change the fact that your instructions say to have them on the inside and your fully assembled advertising pics on your website has them on the outside. We ultimately decided just to put them on the outside as they clear the Bilstein's fine just like what's pictured on your website with your own MS2020's.

 

[Monster Mike]

I never emailed anyone. They asked for my email and said someone would email or call me. You guys are usually quick to respond but I imagine things get backed up so no worries, I get it. Our initial thought was that the bottom tabs didn't get bent enough. There was no way they would clear the bottom links like they are. We ultimately decided just to put them on the outside as they clear the Bilstiens fine.

Oops, I misread that. My mistake on the email. Yes, it's been hectic here with spring coming and tax return season upon us. We are doubling our efforts but I'm sure you know how it is to get new people and new processes up to speed.

10-4 on final fit. Glad it worked out.

MM

 

[TNcowboy]

I was considering going this route on a current build but I gotta say that it seems like you all are not standing behind your product. It's apparent that parts were fabbed incorrectly, instructions and pics are at odds and rather than send out replacement parts that are bent correctly you talk about tax season and the difficulty of new employees.

How does whining about taxes and labor fix Jason's problem?

Seems rather Lame

I'll add this,
You would benefit from reading and applying Jocko Willink's book " Extreme Ownership".

 

[ngsd]

I was considering going this route on a current build but I gotta say that it seems like you all are not standing behind your product. It's apparent that parts were fabbed incorrectly, instructions and pics are at odds and rather than send out replacement parts that are bent correctly you talk about tax season and the difficulty of new employees.

How does whining about taxes and labor fix Jason's problem?

Seems rather Lame

I'll add this,
You would benefit from reading and applying Jocko Willink's book " Extreme Ownership".

No this post is lame. How do you get that they don't stand behind their products out of this? You obviously have not dealt with them.

 

[bigmuddy]

Maybe its me, but I always question newbs that show up with 15 or fewer posts that are critical of a vendor or in general being an ass.

Makes me think they joined just joined to grind an ax... Of course we have new and old asses on here too

By the way, criticize as much as you want here on CB as far as I'm concerned. But it's best to do it after trying to work it out with the vendor.

 

[TNcowboy]

Question away

What I read was a reply that failed to address the issue of a admittedly flawed part and instructions. I even tried to help him address what I perceive as a lack of ownership of an issue and a way to correct it. You can't fix what you don't own.

As a business owner dealing with a lot of one off projects, I'm not afraid of self examination. Actually I was trying to open his eyes to a shortcoming.

I do want to thank you for pointing out that a large quantity of posts clearly doesn't translate into business savvy or insight....carry on

 

[Monster Mike]

I was considering going this route on a current build but I gotta say that it seems like you all are not standing behind your product. It's apparent that parts were fabbed incorrectly, instructions and pics are at odds and rather than send out replacement parts that are bent correctly you talk about tax season and the difficulty of new employees.

How does whining about taxes and labor fix Jason's problem?

Seems rather Lame

I'll add this,
You would benefit from reading and applying Jocko Willink's book " Extreme Ownership".

Hey you’re entitled to your opinion and it’s never bad to see it from more than one perspective. I can see you’re not much into sugarcoating or is there another reason you’re post is so candid?

First I am curious why you don’t think we are standing behind our product? I’m pretty sure if you read above, the OP & I both agreed that the brackets work fine the way they are as long as he runs the shocks he’s running & uses the Bronco the way he plans on using it. In fact, I will be clarifying that in the instructions for others to use the sway bar the same way. Let’s not forget, I haven’t verified if the brackets are the problem. It could be something else. Possibly a design change so hold your horses there cowboy.

Whining? Can it just be talking? This is a “Chat” forum right? If you perceive the insight I give to some of the challenges we are facing right now as a woe is us than maybe it’s time to put that book down and start getting out to the events and getting to know the people that make this community great? You will find we are all just everyday average joes that are passionate about Bronco’s and spend entirely too much time for very little monetary gain at our jobs because of that passion. Very few hands do many jobs here at Duff’s and because of that when the work stacks up we can and sometimes do make mistakes, we except we are human and we do our best to right the wrongs when they come up.

I own the book Extreme Ownership. It’s a great read but I cannot own all the problems. There are some I cannot control. You will always know when I or we made a mistake because I will say so and I will give an explanation if I can. If that seems lame to you or a cop-out then I don’t know if we could ever see eye to eye or understand each other?

Buy or don’t buy our products, it’s not a hard sell here. We’ve been at this for 53 years. We may not be the best everyday but you can bet we absolutely stand behind our products and do what we can to take care of our customers.

MM

 

[Monster Mike]

By the way, criticize as much as you want here on CB as far as I'm concerned. But it's best to do it after trying to work it out with the vendor.

Great points for sure Ben.

This one from you above is my favorite.

As much as I agree the community should keep vendors in check from time to time, the vendors that are engaged and doing all they can to make their products great should be given some grace.

With that being said, this is where I take responsibility for us as a company.
Sometimes, when the customer calls us, it just comes down to us asking the customer the right questions so we get back to them in a reasonable amount of time when/if it’s an urgent matter. We should also be telling them what the call or email back wait time will be. Not saying we don’t but in this case maybe we could do more even if it was just a few more questions because we don’t want any unhappy customers. Especially the ones that are right in the middle of installing our parts.

MM

 

[Monster Mike]

As far as the instructions go.....Sure you could update the instructions for people "like me" but what would it say? "Hey, we might not have bent the tabs like they're supposed to be"? This is JD's fault, not me needing special instructions. I followed your instructions and it didn't work because of something you did, not me needing something special. Our initial thought was that the bottom tabs didn't get bent enough. I wasn't keen on removing, heating up powder-coated parts, and bending. There was no way they would clear the bottom links like they are (look at pics). That also doesn't change the fact that your instructions say to have them on the inside and your fully assembled advertising pics on your website has them on the outside. We ultimately decided just to put them on the outside as they clear the Bilstein's fine just like what's pictured on your website with your own MS2020's.

Ok, just so we are on the same page, this not what you initially posted. That is why I didn't reply to this.

Yes, I agree there is an issue here. Your feedback is appreciated and will be helpful moving forward. This is a new product so we expect a few small details like this to get overlooked. Customers are always a great helping hand in dialing in the last little details of a new product.

With a system as large and intricate as our 4 link there are several areas like ordering, manufacturing instruction, labeling, website and marketing processes that are not always created from scratch if they share the same DNA of a part we already offer.

With that being said, the street 4 link uses the same sway bar as our offroad system and it has its own instruction sheet. The pics from the website are actually from a customer and not to beat a dead horse but as you see they mounted the links differently then we say to. That is where the confusion started and then compounded when you ran into the clearance issue.

I’m not saying you are a special case. What I am saying is it is totally fine to mount em like you did & if we could have just verified that with you over the phone the first time you called or added that to the instruction sheet we wouldn’t be here discussing this right?

And just so we are clear, I am not sure if the bracket not being bent enough is the issue. I think it might be but it could be a design change too. I need to study the parts involved before making that call.

Jason, are we good here? Or am I still missing something? I want you to be happy with our parts and feel confident in your purchase now and moving forward. Feel free to email me anytime. Monstermike@dufftuff.com

 

[TNcowboy]

Hey you’re entitled to your opinion and it’s never bad to see it from more than one perspective. I can see you’re not much into sugarcoating or is there another reason you’re post is so candid?

First I am curious why you don’t think we are standing behind our product? I’m pretty sure if you read above, the OP & I both agreed that the brackets work fine the way they are as long as he runs the shocks he’s running & uses the Bronco the way he plans on using it. In fact, I will be clarifying that in the instructions for others to use the sway bar the same way. Let’s not forget, I haven’t verified if the brackets are the problem. It could be something else. Possibly a design change so hold your horses there cowboy.

Whining? Can it just be talking? This is a “Chat” forum right? If you perceive the insight I give to some of the challenges we are facing right now as a woe is us than maybe it’s time to put that book down and start getting out to the events and getting to know the people that make this community great? You will find we are all just everyday average joes that are passionate about Bronco’s and spend entirely too much time for very little monetary gain at our jobs because of that passion. Very few hands do many jobs here at Duff’s and because of that when the work stacks up we can and sometimes do make mistakes, we except we are human and we do our best to right the wrongs when they come up.

I own the book Extreme Ownership. It’s a great read but I cannot own all the problems. There are some I cannot control. You will always know when I or we made a mistake because I will say so and I will give an explanation if I can. If that seems lame to you or a cop-out then I don’t know if we could ever see eye to eye or understand each other?

Buy or don’t buy our products, it’s not a hard sell here. We’ve been at this for 53 years. We may not be the best everyday but you can bet we absolutely stand behind our products and do what we can to take care of our customers.

MM

My reaction was based on your reply to Jason and the selective editing you did on his quote. You glossed over the critical issue of where he perceived you dropped the ball. That was a great opportunity for you to take ownership and make potential clients like me feel as though you're standing behind your products.

No reasonable person expects infallibility, but we should expect issues to be owned and dealt when they are presented. Maybe Jason was incorrect or maybe there was a bad batch of parts and inconsistent instructions....so what! If you address it you'll be seen as a stand up guy for saying so and fixing it.

.......Actually I just saw you've just addressed Jason's concerns that lead to my initial reply. Thanks for stepping up! I'll stand down

 

[Monster Mike]

My reaction was based on your reply to Jason and the selective editing you did on his quote. You glossed over the critical issue of where he perceived you dropped the ball. That was a great opportunity for you to take ownership and make potential clients like me feel as though you're standing behind your products.

No reasonable person expects infallibility, but we should expect issues to be owned and dealt when they are presented. Maybe Jason was incorrect or maybe there was a bad batch of parts and inconsistent instructions....so what! If you address it you'll be seen as a stand up guy for saying so and fixing it.

.......Actually I just saw you've just addressed Jason's concerns that lead to my initial reply. Thanks for stepping up! I'll stand down

Just so we are all on the same page, I did not selectively edit Jason’s quote. He edited his original post after I replied to it.

I can see now what happened here. Makes sense why you initially felt the way you did.

Now we can all carry on!

 

[jasonmcc]

Just so we are all on the same page, I did not selectively edit Jason’s quote. He edited his original post after I replied to it.

I can see now what happened here. Makes sense why you initially felt the way you did.

Now we can all carry on!

Where or when did I edit a post after you replied? It states under the post date and time edited. My original post about the issue was never edited. I only edited post 68 at 6:52 am and you replied at 8:05 am.

 

[ZOSO]

Side note. Im saving my pennies for this system. Hopefully soon and can get it installed and ready for a rubicon test this summer.