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Front brakes will bleed fluid but, won't stop

chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
Ok, did some more work on the brakes and bled them all, thinking my decreased braking power was an air issue. I bled everything and did get all the dirty fluid and bubbles out, running a total of 2.5 quarts of new fluid through the system. Braking isn't any better and I noticed the rears are locking up under hard braking.

I assume the fronts aren't working! Any thoughts on how to troubleshoot and fix? Just weird that fluid will bleed through but, the pressure won't activate the brakes?

It's a 77 with drum rear, power disc up front.
 

Cvcoda

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
318
Loc.
Omaha, NE
Are you certain that the fronts aren't working? I have a '76 that had stock discs in front and drums in rear and my rears used to lock up under hard braking as well. I believe that may have been a proportioning valve issue. Is your proportioning valve original?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Jason72Bronco

Full Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
156
I recommend an adjustable proportioning valve. To proportion more to the fronts and prevent rear lockup.

Also, are you sure that all of the air is out of the fronts? I had a bear of a time when I put on front discs, and finally figured out that air was staying trapped in the loop of the hose to the calipers. I recommend speedbleeders.
 
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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
Proportioning valve makes sense. I assume this is original below? The PO did a cosmetic restore and did reuse a lot of original parts.
Is this adjustable? If not, where can I get an adjustable?

I bled them pretty good with a Mity vac pump bleeder.

 

rmk57

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
580
Could also be your power brake booster failing or a vacuum leak.

2.5 quarts of brake fluid? Should be really clean now, the whole system can't take more than a pint.
 
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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
Could also be your power brake booster failing or a vacuum leak.

2.5 quarts of brake fluid? Should be really clean now, the whole system can't take more than a pint.

Entire PS and booster are all new, maybe 1000 miles on them. What's best way to troubleshoot the booster and vac line?

I definitely over did the bleeding. Just kept seeing cloudy stuff slip through and a stray bubble here and there. Figured I'd err on the side of caution and guarantee it was all clean and 100%new fluid. :)
 

rmk57

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
580
If everything is new then it's doubtful your booster is giving you trouble.

I think the procedure is to pump the pedal with the engine off until you set a firm pedal and then with your foot still lightly on the brake start the engine. The brake pedal should sink a bit when the engine starts.

Good luck!
 
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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
If everything is new then it's doubtful your booster is giving you trouble.

I think the procedure is to pump the pedal with the engine off until you set a firm pedal and then with your foot still lightly on the brake start the engine. The brake pedal should sink a bit when the engine starts.

Good luck!

Ok just did that... I pump it up and it sits 1/3 to 1/2 up in the pedal travel path. As soon as the engine fires, the brake pedal sinks an inch or so under my foot.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
35,184
What pads are you running in front? I've known brake issues to be the result of overly hard pads (often "lifetime" versions), cheap soft pads, or abused pads. Changing pad compound can make massive differences in how brakes behave.

How are the rubber lines? they can get spongy.

Do you have the calipers on correctly? You can put left on right and right on left. They fit perfect. Trouble is the bleeder isn't on top of the piston bore any you forever have an air bubble that will never go away.

Also check brake line routing. The front port goes to the rear brakes, and the rear port goes to the front brakes.
 

rmk57

Sr. Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
580
Good point on the rubber brake hoses. I've had them caked up on the inside with so much rust, sludge that they would barely pass any fluid. They would give me a nice firm pedal but without any real stopping power. Replacing them made a huge difference. This was a drum brake non-power 66 with the original hoses.
 

Tstinnett

Newbie
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
41
I just buttoned up the hydroboost on my 76 and may start bleeding the brakes this evening but Broncobowshers post made me question my lines going to the proportion valve.

I have the same factory proportioning valve (not the earlier H Block) as Chris. So the rear port (closest to the firewall) feeds the front? And the Front port feeds the rear? I assumed the in/out ports where "paired" on the valve.

I may be making new lines...
 
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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
Update to original post: Didn't want to throw parts at it but, calipers looked original and pretty gunked up and pads also looked aged. Never like to skimp on brakes so I replaced pads, calipers and hoses and bled again. Unfortunately, not much better braking performance.

I'm guessing the proportioning valve is all that's left. Does it help much to go with adjustable valve or, is a replacement stock prop valve enough for 33's and basic road driving? I can go either way, just didn't want to change from stock replacement if no need to.

Thanks in advance.
Chris
 

Rlemon

New Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
9
I have a 76 with factory disk. I removed the proportioning valve and plumbed the front brakes direct to the MC and put a wildwood adjustable in the rear line to control lockup. This has worked well for me.
 

DirtDonk

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
48,235
If your existing prop valve is not the culprit in blocking flow to the fronts, then changing it out to reduce pressure to the rear, will do only just that. Reduce the rear brake force. It will do nothing for increasing the pressure to the front. That's not it's job.
Doing so will certainly allow you to adjust out the rear lockup, but if doing this against an already under-performing front, all you're doing is going through a lot of work to reduce your brakes power even more.
However, if your old one is somehow blocking flow, then yes, changing out is a good idea.

Not only for that though, but if your Bronco is modified with lifts, larger tires, different things here and there, then the original "balance" of the truck is no longer stock anyway, so it's possible that the original design valve is no longer accurate.

But as an aside, are you pulling the delay valve stem out while bleeding the fronts, as described in the manual? You see on the very front face of the valve is a small threaded-in fitting with a small stem sticking out? That's a "delay valve" to restrict the fronts until the rears can catch up. It's supposed to be deactivated during bleeding so that it's not causing any trouble during the process. It's possible that this valve is stuck and not allowing full pressure to the fronts.
You should be able to test this by pulling out on it with some pliers and holding it out somehow. There is a tool described in the books (little spring clip thingy) but I've had moderate success with needle-nosed locking pliers/Vise-Grips too. Use one pair of standard needle nose pliers to pull out on the valve, then the Vise-Grips clamp on the stem to hold it in it's open position.
After you do this, go for a drive and see if there is any change.

If so, then you have your culprit. If not, then I suppose it's still possible that corrosion or debris has built up inside and it could still be the valve causing your trouble. Don't know how to test that though.

Either way, if you decide to go with a new one, I also recommend an adjustable in the rear only. It's just more adaptable to the different Bronco setups with different tires and weights and all that. It's not simpler to install in an existing system of course, because it does mean some re-orienting of tubes and most likely going to involve some custom bending and such. But it's the way to go in my opinion.
If you decide simpler is better, I then the non-adjustable type would fit that bill. Here's both types and some fittings that we sell: http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/category/s?keyword=proportioning+valve
I don't believe the stock original style is available anywhere (that I've seen anyway) but it's possible that the Mustang guys are reproducing something more accurate than a block of brass like the aftermarket has.
But even if you find a factory style, don't assume it's got the same thread size as yours. I'm pretty sure that Ford had at least four different versions for different cars and trucks, and they do not just bolt up to the same bolt holes or have the same thread size for the tubes. So unless you find an exact prepop of your EB model, the one pictured is the best route.
I just hate how they often leak out of the front plug. No rhyme or reason, other than some don't, some do.

I think something worth mentioning too, is that stock Bronco brakes were good, but not fantastic. And anytime an aftermarket booster is added, you run the risk of having even weaker brakes. They're just not as powerful as the original Ford version that I've experienced. Not that I've driven a ton of factory original versions back when they were new, but I've driven plenty of newer aftermarket power brake equipped Broncos, and whether with your Ford calipers, or the more common GM caliper setups, they're just average brakes. Good, but only a little better than manual brakes.

Good luck tracking this down. But I'd start with checking that delay valve's function before re-designing the whole system. Maybe even pull it out and inspect the seals and look for gunk inside the main prop valve body while you're in there.

Paul
 
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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
But as an aside, are you pulling the delay valve stem out while bleeding the fronts, as described in the manual? You see on the very front face of the valve is a small threaded-in fitting with a small stem sticking out? That's a "delay valve" to restrict the fronts until the rears can catch up. It's supposed to be deactivated during bleeding so that it's not causing any trouble during the process. It's possible that this valve is stuck and not allowing full pressure to the fronts.

You should be able to test this by pulling out on it with some pliers and holding it out somehow. There is a tool described in the books (little spring clip thingy) but I've had moderate success with needle-nosed locking pliers/Vise-Grips too. Use one pair of standard needle nose pliers to pull out on the valve, then the Vise-Grips clamp on the stem to hold it in it's open position.
After you do this, go for a drive and see if there is any change.

If so, then you have your culprit. If not, then I suppose it's still possible that corrosion or debris has built up inside and it could still be the valve causing your trouble. Don't know how to test that though.

Good luck tracking this down. But I'd start with checking that delay valve's function before re-designing the whole system. Maybe even pull it out and inspect the seals and look for gunk inside the main prop valve body while you're in there.

Paul

Paul, thanks for the great info and input!
I didn't pull that valve when bleeding the fronts. Do I just pull it once to open the valve and then bleed or, do I have to hold that little valve open while bleeding fronts or, just pull it once to relieve pressure or somethng then vacuum bleed? Any chance there's a write up on this part of bleeding the fronts?

Thanks,
 

Master Chief

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
1,211
These pages copied from the 1976 Ford service manual may help out with what Paul and Steve described.
 

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chrisd0729

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2003
Messages
609
Loc.
Churchville, PA
Update on research and testing however, no good news...

Not knowing for sure what the PO replaced and what they just cleaned up and painted, I replaced front calipers, pads, rubber hoses and master cylinder. I installed the stock replacement ACDelco 18M31. I bench bled the MC before installing, pulled the front needle plunger on the prop valve when bleeding the front brakes and then tried pinching it open with vise grips for a test drive. In between and after all of these fixes, I saw no improvement in braking. I still have a low pedal and the rears lock up under hard braking.

It's a 77 with 33's and power disc brakes. Any other thoughts on what I can troubleshoot?
 
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