help for a squirrely ride

[DirtDonk]

And so can a flexible trackbar, bushing, bolt, or mount.

 

[4x4man514]

Thanks guys. I haven't taken it to an alignment shop yet so I don't know what the caster is yet. Yesterday was the first time I've been able to drive it. I don't even know of a competent shop in my area at the time.

 

[4x4man514]

Ok so finally got her to an alignment shop and this is what I got

 

[4x4man514]

Try this again

 

[4x4man514]

I wasn't expecting such a difference between the left and right on the caster. I guess it's because of the wristed housing. So do I try to correct just one side? That doesn't seem right. Or am I back to replacing the housing? Or pinning it. But then how do I know I'm pinning it in the right place?

 

[Yeller]

3.5 degrees is still marginal, really needs to be 6 degrees . The difference is due to the wristed housing. The caster angle can be measured off of the bottom of the lower ball joint, not always perfect due to manufacturing tolerances, but usually +/- 1/2 degree. It’s close enough that is were I measure them when I work on them.

 

[jamesroney]

I wasn't expecting such a difference between the left and right on the caster. I guess it's because of the wristed housing. So do I try to correct just one side? That doesn't seem right. Or am I back to replacing the housing? Or pinning it. But then how do I know I'm pinning it in the right place?

I will give you some more advice like I did back in June, and you can choose to ignore it too.

You are kind of lucky, because you are asking sort of the right question. You have been told by @Yeller that you need 6 degrees of caster. And then you ask which side is correct, and if you need to fix one side, or both.

The answer for you ONLY is that you only need to correct one side, because you are already correcting the other side when you pin it. (and by "pin it" I mean WELD it.) So the only good news is that you don't need to remove the outer C on the passenger side because you can do the cut and turn for that side by rotating the tube at the wrist. BUT that will put your radius arm wedges in the wrong location. So you will have to run one side with upside down wedges and the whole thing becomes a mess.

I can't believe that in the entire state of Augusta, GA there isn't one person that doesn't want a wristed housing. You would be vastly better off trading that housing for one that isn't modified. Strange that somebody put $$$ into that housing, and now we want to un-wrist it.

You say that you are at 4 inches front lift, and 5 inches rear, but I don't believe you. Because if you are 4 inches front lift, and 5 inches rear lift, AND your native left side caster is 3.5 positive, THEN your pinion angle is sitting at 8 degrees, and your front driveshaft will absolutely bind.

So you know you need to cut and turn a housing, and you have an extra housing already, so now you need to cut and turn that one. But you have zero clue how much more caster to put in it. So you gotta start from the beginning, and move FORWARD. Otherwise you will be in this endless loop of 1 step forward, 1 step back.

Answer these questions IN THIS ORDER:
1. Do you like your current lift height, or do you plan to EVER change it?
2. What exactly are your dimensions from axle tube to frame at the lift height that you say you like?
3. Is your transfer case in the final, happy, joyous location?
4. How much do you need to rotate your pinion UP to get it to aim directly at your transfer case yoke? (Example: for a 3.5 lift, and a factory D20 and low pinion 44, the answer is 15 degrees or so...)
4a. This is a hard number to calculate, and it is vastly easier to determine empirically. (meaning measure) Put your Bronco on jack stands, remove the front springs and radius arm caps, put your axle on jack stands with at the correct frame distance. and rotate the pinion up until it is where you want it. As you go up, the driveshaft also goes up, so the angle reduces. Once the pinion is aimed at the driveshaft, measure the angle, and write it on the wall.

Keep in mind that EVERY BRONCO that ever left the factory before 1978 has the wrong caster in it. Some need a little bit more caster, and some need a lot more, But they ALL need a cut-and-turn. And that is an unfortunate FACT. And there are two kinds of Bronco Drivers in the world. Those who drive a Bronco that steers correctly, and those who THINK they drive a Bronco that steers correctly. The ONLY Bronco that will go down the road with any kind of almost decent manners are the ones at 4 degrees caster, and brand new All Terrain Radials, with every other component in the front end new and perfect. And they still wander. Those of us at 7 degrees caster run mismatched rag tires, at random air pressure, with worn steering boxes, and tie rods that are 50 years old drinking coffee with one hand, shifting with one hand. steering with your knees while making lane changes on the freeway at 70 MPH.

Once you know how much pinion to put in your housing, you can lop the ends off your spare housing and do the cut and turn. Should not need to cut the wedges. The will be fine.

 

[JB Fab]

What he said^^^^^

 

[4x4man514]

I will give you some more advice like I did back in June, and you can choose to ignore it too.

You are kind of lucky, because you are asking sort of the right question. You have been told by @Yeller that you need 6 degrees of caster. And then you ask which side is correct, and if you need to fix one side, or both.

The answer for you ONLY is that you only need to correct one side, because you are already correcting the other side when you pin it. (and by "pin it" I mean WELD it.) So the only good news is that you don't need to remove the outer C on the passenger side because you can do the cut and turn for that side by rotating the tube at the wrist. BUT that will put your radius arm wedges in the wrong location. So you will have to run one side with upside down wedges and the whole thing becomes a mess.

I can't believe that in the entire state of Augusta, GA there isn't one person that doesn't want a wristed housing. You would be vastly better off trading that housing for one that isn't modified. Strange that somebody put $$$ into that housing, and now we want to un-wrist it.

You say that you are at 4 inches front lift, and 5 inches rear, but I don't believe you. Because if you are 4 inches front lift, and 5 inches rear lift, AND your native left side caster is 3.5 positive, THEN your pinion angle is sitting at 8 degrees, and your front driveshaft will absolutely bind.

So you know you need to cut and turn a housing, and you have an extra housing already, so now you need to cut and turn that one. But you have zero clue how much more caster to put in it. So you gotta start from the beginning, and move FORWARD. Otherwise you will be in this endless loop of 1 step forward, 1 step back.

Answer these questions IN THIS ORDER:
1. Do you like your current lift height, or do you plan to EVER change it?
2. What exactly are your dimensions from axle tube to frame at the lift height that you say you like?
3. Is your transfer case in the final, happy, joyous location?
4. How much do you need to rotate your pinion UP to get it to aim directly at your transfer case yoke? (Example: for a 3.5 lift, and a factory D20 and low pinion 44, the answer is 15 degrees or so...)
4a. This is a hard number to calculate, and it is vastly easier to determine empirically. (meaning measure) Put your Bronco on jack stands, remove the front springs and radius arm caps, put your axle on jack stands with at the correct frame distance. and rotate the pinion up until it is where you want it. As you go up, the driveshaft also goes up, so the angle reduces. Once the pinion is aimed at the driveshaft, measure the angle, and write it on the wall.

Keep in mind that EVERY BRONCO that ever left the factory before 1978 has the wrong caster in it. Some need a little bit more caster, and some need a lot more, But they ALL need a cut-and-turn. And that is an unfortunate FACT. And there are two kinds of Bronco Drivers in the world. Those who drive a Bronco that steers correctly, and those who THINK they drive a Bronco that steers correctly. The ONLY Bronco that will go down the road with any kind of almost decent manners are the ones at 4 degrees caster, and brand new All Terrain Radials, with every other component in the front end new and perfect. And they still wander. Those of us at 7 degrees caster run mismatched rag tires, at random air pressure, with worn steering boxes, and tie rods that are 50 years old drinking coffee with one hand, shifting with one hand. steering with your knees while making lane changes on the freeway at 70 MPH.

Once you know how much pinion to put in your housing, you can lop the ends off your spare housing and do the cut and turn. Should not need to cut the wedges. The will be fine.

Thanks for all the detailed info. I can assure you I'm not ignoring yours or anyone else's information on here. I'm on here to learn and how to improve my bronco. As far as anybody in my state wanting a wristed axle I can say It's been years since I've seen another bronco around here. I built the wristed axle prolly 15 to 20 years ago when I wanted a trail rig. At this point in my life I know this bronco won't leave the pavement so my prorites have shifted. I don't plan on giving the wristed axle up unless I have too. I don't expect this to drive like a Cadillac but I'd like to drive 55 without my butthole all puckered up. OF COURSE I'm looking for the easiest solution and I know that's not the best solution but I'm trying to learn if there is something in between. I've spent too many years working on this bronco and 0 years enjoying it.

And as for lift I know I have 4.5 unless the vendors swindled me. And you are right my pinion angle is not great but I haven't gotten my driveshaft lengthened enough yet to even try to hook it up. I dunno how big a deal that is just yet since this is a pavement princess anyways. As of now I ordered some trex arms from duffs to see if I can get that caster straight ( I know this wont help the pinion angle. ) . If I can't find any happiness with this then I guess I'll parking her for another year and get to cutting and turning on my old housing. Thanks!

 

[Torkman66]

@4x4man514 i understand completely. My numbers were different than yours and I do not have a wristed/pinned axle, but my ride is also a street rig. Couple things:
First, if it’s not ever going 4 wheel drive then ignore your pinon angle. Second, fix your caster and you will get the enjoyable ride you want. Third, the adjustable TRex will solve your caster problem. I did everything possible to solve caster (other than cut and turn) and got as high as 4°. Still wandered road. Not fun to drive. Two hands and grip tight if in a turn and hitting a dip. I finally installed the Adjustable Trex, went to 8° caster. Drives like a dream. Next bronco gets a cut and turn. But for this one, she is good to go and a blast to drive. Good luck.

 

[4x4man514]

@4x4man514 i understand completely. My numbers were different than yours and I do not have a wristed/pinned axle, but my ride is also a street rig. Couple things:
First, if it’s not ever going 4 wheel drive then ignore your pinon angle. Second, fix your caster and you will get the enjoyable ride you want. Third, the adjustable TRex will solve your caster problem. I did everything possible to solve caster (other than cut and turn) and got as high as 4°. Still wandered road. Not fun to drive. Two hands and grip tight if in a turn and hitting a dip. I finally installed the Adjustable Trex, went to 8° caster. Drives like a dream. Next bronco gets a cut and turn. But for this one, she is good to go and a blast to drive. Good luck.

Thanks! My trex arms came today so now I just need some time off to try them out. The alignment surprised me with the differing numbers on each side. But I like the fact that now with the ttrx arms I can adjust independently. Plus the alignment guy says I need more on the passenger side for some reason I don't understand. He said he's set up a lot of racecars as well so maybe it's the whole turn right scenario. I don't know but turns out he has a bronco as well so at least he's familiar with them.

 

[Bruners4]

Normal caster spread for a front solid drive axle is 0.3°–0.7° with more caster on the left (driver side) to offset for road crown. Keep this in mind when setting your caster.

 

[4x4man514]

Normal caster spread for a front solid drive axle is 0.3°–0.7° with more caster on the left (driver side) to offset for road crown. Keep this in mind when setting your caster.

Interesting. That's about the same spread as he told me but he said more on the passenger side. I can see the crown in the rd making a difference. Seems like it would be the same for a race track. Thanks!

 

[Torkman66]

With the solid front axle you’re not going to really have independent caster adjustment on each side. When rotating back one side, entire axle rotates back. As far as I know, only way to offset caster is with eccentrics or during cut and turn. I wouldn’t over think it or try to“ dial it in.” You know your caster numbers, find a spot on the bottom of the knuckle somewhere and using your digital angle gauge place it around various spots until you find a place that shows the same angle as in the alignment readout. Mark that spot. Then when you install Trex go back to that spot and you can determine how much you changed caster. If it were me, with those numbers, I’d install the arms and set them to max caster. I think the offset you have left to right cannot be adjusted with the trex. While each side has its own adjustment, it moves the entire axle, not just that side. I wouldn’t even worry about that. Just get them installed and rotate axle back as far as you can get it to go then tighten nuts to full torque. That should give you the ride you want. It’s a old farm truck. It’s not going to be perfect, but this should make it enjoyable to drive. Good luck. Let us know if you have any questions during install.
And while you can’t adjust caster different left or right (with the exceptions noted above) if you could you would put more caster on Passenger side due to road making truck wanting to steer right from center road crown.

 

[EPB72]

Interesting. That's about the same spread as he told me but he said more on the passenger side. I can see the crown in the rd making a difference. Seems like it would be the same for a race track. Thanks!

correct more positive caster on passenger is prefered usually within a degree, ..

 

[jamesroney]

With the solid front axle you’re not going to really have independent caster adjustment on each side. When rotating back one side, entire axle rotates back. As far as I know, only way to offset caster is with eccentrics or during cut and turn. I wouldn’t over think it or try to“ dial it in.” You know your caster numbers, find a spot on the bottom of the knuckle somewhere and using your digital angle gauge place it around various spots until you find a place that shows the same angle as in the alignment readout. Mark that spot. Then when you install Trex go back to that spot and you can determine how much you changed caster. If it were me, with those numbers, I’d install the arms and set them to max caster. I think the offset you have left to right cannot be adjusted with the trex. While each side has its own adjustment, it moves the entire axle, not just that side. I wouldn’t even worry about that. Just get them installed and rotate axle back as far as you can get it to go then tighten nuts to full torque. That should give you the ride you want. It’s a old farm truck. It’s not going to be perfect, but this should make it enjoyable to drive. Good luck. Let us know if you have any questions during install.
And while you can’t adjust caster different left or right (with the exceptions noted above) if you could you would put more caster on Passenger side due to road making truck wanting to steer right from center road crown.

Did you forget that he is running a wristed housing with duff arms?

Until he pins or welds the swivel joint, he has independent control of the cross caster. In fact, he's running 4 degrees of caster split right now. He can control caster thru different c-bushing on each side, AND he can get granular control by using eccentric bushings in his Duff arms.

You need to be VERY careful about the front driveshaft when you hit 4.5 inches of lift, AND you run the correct 7 degrees of caster. Not because of rocks, or off-roading. The front driveshaft simply won't hang down enough to actually reach the yoke. I've seen guys run them that way, and the suspension has zero down travel.

I already said cut-and-turn. Anything else I post is just noise. So unless someone tags me in this post, I'll stay quiet.

 

[Torkman66]

@jamesroney you are correct.