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Inline 6 running terrible & low compression (deeply technical)

DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
I saw somewhere that compression on the inline 6 is supposed to be 175 or so new, and that of course there is variances between cylinders. When the engine was still running, I did the carb cleaner test looking for vacuum leaks, and found none on the intake, head, exhaust manifold, base of carb, vacuum ports, manifold bolts, etc.

Mine was running rough, so I did a dry compression test and got this:
#1 - 130 psi
#2 - 137 psi
#3 - 138 psi
#4 - 60 psi
#5 - 55 psi
#6 - 100 psi

The average was therefore 103 psi. The lowest, 55 psi, was 53% less than the average - well more than than the 15% variance recommended by some engine builders (I'm not an expert, so don't shoot me).

My highest reading was 138, and 15% of this is 21 psi. The number I don't think I'd want to be below would be 117 psi (138-21). Three cylinders, or 50% of the engine,are below this, so then I did a wet compression test (added 2 tablespoons engine oil) on the low cylinders, and got this:

#4 - 70 psi (up 10 psi)
#5 - 60 psi (up 5 psi)
#6 - 120 psi (up 20 psi)

Now, I know that adding any fluid to combustion chamber will raise any compression, so increases I saw in the compression are nominal at best.

I have the valve cover off, and checked torque on all head bolts. When cranking the engine, all valves bob up and down as you would expect. Engine is hydraulic lifters, and this doesn't have valve adjustment, so not sure what else I can do at this point.

I think that because the amount they went up was minimal, I am hoping to rule out pistons or rings. However, I know that if the compression values don't go up between tests, the problem is usually in the cylinder heads. I think that if the compression went way up, then the rings would be warn and bad, and I'd be doing a bottom-end job. As the compression values stayed kind of the same, it feels like a cylinder head valve problem.

Called the machine shop, and they are two weeks out, so I have some time to continue diagnostics. They said that there really wasn't any point in doing a cylinder leak-down test, as we know that the compression is so low in 2-3 of the cylinders. Should I do one anyway? I don't own a test tool to accomplish this, though.

Let me know what else you think I should test. I've sunk a lot into this engine already in new parts - distributor, carb, exhaust manifold, plugs, points, cap, rotor, coil, fuel pump - and testing every aforementioned system, and I just cannot make it run worth a damn.

Note: I did the tests with the throttle plate wide open, as I think you should. However, I just realized that the intake manifold had a line detached during the compression testing. I think that having the manifold not plugged won't affect the results I saw in just 3 of the cylinders, but could you more technical folks confirm? Wish I could find my old high school "the internal combustion engine" book from the 50s.
 

patrickk1

Jr. Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
135
Loc.
Cambridge
I'd do the leak down test and figure out where 4&5 are leaking too. Wouldn't take but 15min. Then I'd pull the head. Could just be a bad head gasket. This could mean the difference of just replacing a head gasket, have the head rebuilt, or having the block rebuilt. That's why you want to figure out where they are leaking to with the leak down test.

I had an issue one time with a cylinder that had barely any compression (on a supposed rebuilt engine). Once I pulled the head, it was clear that water got down the carb at sometime and partially filled two cylinders. Over a short period of time the water had drained past the rings to the pan but the valve got some surface rust on it which was preventing it from closing. Had the head rebuilt for $130 and everything was perfect. The cylinder walls looked perfect other than some staining on that one cylinder but you could not feel a difference to the touch. Motor runs like a champ to this day.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
37,077
I will second the leakdown test. The compression ratio doesn't change. If you are not getting the compression you should, you are loosing it somewhere.

The engine isn't going to run very well until you get those low compression cylinders up to where they should be at. Pretty much going to have to get into the engine, but a leak down will tell you what to be looking for when you are in there.
 

70_Steve

Old Guy
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
8,317
Dunno about the specific leakdown test. But I think it would be worth the effort to put air pressure in each cylinder, with that cylinders piston at TDC (both valves closed). Makes it easy to tell which way the air is leaking. If you have air leaking back up the manifold, chances are pretty darn good you need a valve job.
 

hucklburry rev2

Sr. Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
772
Mine was reading 140-138 except for 2 with sticking valves, so don't let those #s worry you, as long as you can get them into the 130s you should be happy, it might be happy even lower, I dunno.

Its a 200 I assume, not many 170s had hydraulic lifters I don't believe.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
37,077
My leak down test has never been done with a real leak down tester. Just a compression tester with the check valve removed. Put in whatever the shop air pressure is and damned if you were not exactly at TDC and the engine jumped. But as long as you really are at TDC the piston will stay at the top of the bore. At that point you start listening to where the air is leaking at. When you feel it, you know that is really bad.
 

B RON CO

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Messages
2,484
Loc.
Statesville, NC
Hi, this is what I see, 1,2,3 are good, 6 is low, and 4-5 are gone. 4,5,6 may have burned valves and seats. The valve job was very common on engines with over 100,000 miles. It is possible the head gasket is blown between 4 and 5. I think the head is going to the machine shop for a valve job. The guys are right about a leakdown and or air hold test. I've done both. Put the compressed air into the cylinder and see where it comes out. Carb exhaust or dipstick. Of course the valves must be closed for this test. Good luck
 

needabronco

Bronco Guru
Joined
Jul 2, 2004
Messages
6,411
Loc.
Prescott/Farmington
Pour a quart of cheap ATF in the oil block off the radiator and run it at varying speeds for 20-30 minutes getting it nice and hot, but don't overheat it. Afterwords change the oil and run it a little while before you try the compression test again. You may see some improvement, but if you don't your only out a few bucks and your engine internals will be cleaner.
 
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DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
I worked at a shop that would pour ATF down the carb when running at high RPM. Fun to watch the white smoke out the tailpipe. He was an old-skool racing guy in the 80s.

I will do the leak-down test. I have a compressor. I will buy the tool and report back. Thanks guys!
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
37,077
I think the ATF was suppose to go in the crankcase, not down the carb. Clean sticky carbon off the rings is the trick it is used for.

I would do a leak down first. If it is rings, try the ATF trick before doing a rebuild.
 

CraigS

Sr. Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2001
Messages
368
People used to put ATF down the carb. Guaranteed to either free stuck things or stick free things, whatever you had.
 
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DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
Too funny.
I got a leak down test and some other tools today, so will report back tomorrow on this issue.
 
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DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
No time to do leak down. Cleaned up valve cover, blocked vacuum ports, fresh plugs, adjusted choke, fired up first crank. Idles smooth at 1,000 RPM or above. Adjusted timing there, and put in gear and adjust timing and idle RPMs. Vacuum test at side of carb reported 6 suction, and at manifold it was about 12 (normal is 15). When I revved it up above idle, it got up to normal zone of 15-16. I haven't messed with idle mixture screws, but would love a 'how to' guide on those early 1 barrel carbs. I must say accessing the idle screw alone is a royal PITA, and hard to do when engine wobbling all over.

For now I need to park this aside and focus on the 289 in the 68.
 

B RON CO

Contributor
Bronco Guru
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Messages
2,484
Loc.
Statesville, NC
Hi, don't bother with the carb if the engine is missing. The old test is to pull a spark plug wire at warm idle. If the engine shakes more that cylinder is working. If nothing changes that cylinder is dead. Good luck
 
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DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
Thank you. Drove it yesterday on highway and oil is coming out around dipstick. Is rotella 10w40. Not overfilled. Overheated at 55+ mph and oil pressure dropped to zero. Will check wiring on sender and dash.
 
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DaveLev

Sr. Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2016
Messages
537
The engine did okay for about 200 miles longer. Wife driving it said it was sputtering and dying at intersection. Thought it was fuel delivery issue, so replaced fuel filter. She was able to drive it home without issues. When engine cooled, wasn't able to start. Good spark, great fuel pressure from pump, clean premium fuel in tank, etc. Checked oil, vacuum ports, verified distributor had not moved, cap and rotor and wires looked good, points look good, would run, sputter, and die quickly. Ran very rough. Pulled off valve cover, and smelled like gas in the oil. Verified torque of head bolts. No oil visible in water. Yet would not start. Took off top of carb and looks like new. Made sure needle and seat were unubstructed. Gumout on the top and venturies. Took out needle and ensured not clogged. Reassembled with new gasket. Was not fuel delivery or spark. Replaced plugs (new 200 miles ago) with new ones properly gapped.

My engine finally crapped out I guess. Never got around to doing leak-down test, though I bought the tester. Pulled head and looked, and looks okay to me. Took to machine shop. They'll do their analysis. I'll measure block for warps across the top, look at cylinder walls as best as I can later (tomorrow maybe), etc. Thermostat was installed right way. Exhaust gaskets were fine. Plugs were very wet - 4 of the 6 were terrible for just about the 200 miles I was able to put on them.

We'll see what the machine shop says. They're two weeks out, but I have the bottom end still in the rig, and am happy to do whatever analysis you recommend.

Engine would not idle long enough to time it, but it was timed perfect before.

Very puzzling. Muffler is new, so not like someone stuffed a baseball up the tailpipes. So confused.

Broke one bolt when removing exhaust manifold. That's a first.
 

Broncobowsher

Total hack
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
37,077
Was the oil level higher than it should be? Fuel pump going out will push fuel into the oil pan giving oil a gas smell as well as thining it down.
 

CraigS

Sr. Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2001
Messages
368
Oiled plugs and oil coming out of the dipstick indicate bad blow-by. You're likely to need a new bottom end, too.
Unless you love this engine, there's probably a 200 sitting in a wrecking yard that would be cheaper and less work.
 
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