It’s cut and turn time

[TheLimeRanger]

Who is doing the work?

mitchell differential in MA

 

[jamesroney]

You posted you were not doing this work on the axle. This is a job I have done several times. I take the axle out from under the truck. I cut off the wedges after marking the outermost location of the wedges. I then take the inner C's off the axle. I then cut the track bar mount off. I clean the axle tubes and tape the wedges back on the axle. I reinstall the axle using 4 degree c bushings. You can use any bushing you want. I just use the 4 in case I need to change some angles, it gives me some adjustment. I then set the pinion angle, tighten the c's on the control arms when you get the pinion angle where you want it. Then I set the C's back on the axle tubes. I rotate then to - 7*. I take a cold chisel and mark the C in relation to the axle tube. I then tack weld the wedges in place. Take the axle back out. Clean up all the places that need to be welded. Weld it up and start your install. If you missed with your angle you can adjust with different c bushings and / or use some offset caster bushings to fine tune your new alignment. I don't know how someone can take an axle to a shop and have this done just by bringing the axle and some numbers and expect it to be correct. So the ability to adjust is key. Like I said I dont care what bushings you use. if you get it right it dont matter.

No need to cut the wedges on an EB housing at 2.5 inches of lift. They are pretty much perfect for front driveshaft angle as long as you are running the factory dana 20 in the factory location with factory radius arms.

Agree on Track bar mount, and it will end up crooked. But at 2.5 lift, it will work fine.

0 degree rubber bushings work great. Every Bronco ever made left the factory with them.

@Broncobowsher is giving some good advice on upside down bushings.

I don't know where @LimeRanger is getting your numbers. (Don't care...) The factory D44 has 12 degrees of intrinsic caster between the pinion and the king pin. So when the wedges are zero, the pinion is 8, and the caster is 4. Lifting the suspension by 2.5 inches on a 32.5 inch radius arm gives you 4.4 degrees. So if you mounted the factory front end into factory arms and dropped them 2.5 inches, the pinion would then point up 12.4 degrees. And the caster would be -0.4. In order to get to +7 you need to rotate 7.4 degrees.

You said you wanted 5 degrees of caster, and I'm not going to argue. (because you don't) If that's what you want, you only need to rotate 5.4 more degrees. Your mileage may vary...

I gotta go.

 

[bax]

No need to cut the wedges on an EB housing at 2.5 inches of lift. They are pretty much perfect for front driveshaft angle as long as you are running the factory dana 20 in the factory location with factory radius arms.

Agree on Track bar mount, and it will end up crooked. But at 2.5 lift, it will work fine.

0 degree rubber bushings work great. Every Bronco ever made left the factory with them.

@Broncobowsher is giving some good advice on upside down bushings.

I don't know where @LoneRanger is getting your numbers. (Don't care...) The factory D44 has 12 degrees of intrinsic caster between the pinion and the king pin. So when the wedges are zero, the pinion is 8, and the caster is 4. Lifting the suspension by 2.5 inches on a 32.5 inch radius arm gives you 4.4 degrees. So if you mounted the factory front end into factory arms and dropped them 2.5 inches, the pinion would then point up 12.4 degrees. And the caster would be -0.4. In order to get to +7 you need to rotate 7.4 degrees.

You said you wanted 5 degrees of caster, and I'm not going to argue. (because you don't) If that's what you want, you only need to rotate 5.4 more degrees. Your mileage may vary...

I gotta go.

All good info, I have to remember that The Lime Ranger is using his bronco front end. I am usually narrowing a full size axle to get a high pinion axle under the bronco. So I can see there may be less work on fixing up the stock bronco housing.

 

[toddz69]

You said you wanted 5 degrees of caster, and I'm not going to argue. (because you don't) If that's what you want, you only need to rotate 5.4 more degrees. Your mileage may vary...

Refresh our memory(ies) on how much caster you like?

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Refresh our memory(ies) on how much caster you like?

Todd Z.

If I don't know anything, I default to 7.
(Just like @bax noted in his post. )

7 is the magic Bronco number. It happens to be the factory spec for the 1997-06 Jeep Wranger 2D 93 inch wheelbase with power steering or a live axle XJ. Heavier cars with longer wheelbase get away with less caster.

Don't hate me. But my other answer is "it depends..."

28 inch highway tread tires with decent centering force, and low profile I go 4.5.
33 inch BFG Radial All Terrain KO on 15 inch wheels I can tolerate 5.


35's on 17's with 3.5 lift on a Bronco I go 7.

 

[bax]

If I don't know anything, I default to 7.
(Just like @bax noted in his post. )

7 is the magic Bronco number. It happens to be the factory spec for the 1997-06 Jeep Wranger 2D 93 inch wheelbase with power steering or a live axle XJ. Heavier cars with longer wheelbase get away with less caster.

Don't hate me. But my other answer is "it depends..."

28 inch highway tread tires with decent centering force, and low profile I go 4.5.
33 inch BFG Radial All Terrain KO on 15 inch wheels I can tolerate 5.


35's on 17's with 3.5 lift on a Bronco I go 7.

I know of several off road vehicles that are set up with 12 degrees. When you are turning hard in the rocks it puts the edge of the tire on the rocks. Helps with grip and front digs.

 

[Yeller]

I know of several off road vehicles that are set up with 12 degrees. When you are turning hard in the rocks it puts the edge of the tire on the rocks. Helps with grip and front digs.

Mine is at 11.5 degrees, wouldn’t change it.

On trail rigs 10-15 degrees makes full hydraulic steering tolerable for ice cream runs.

 

[TheLimeRanger]

No need to cut the wedges on an EB housing at 2.5 inches of lift. They are pretty much perfect for front driveshaft angle as long as you are running the factory dana 20 in the factory location with factory radius arms.

Agree on Track bar mount, and it will end up crooked. But at 2.5 lift, it will work fine.

0 degree rubber bushings work great. Every Bronco ever made left the factory with them.

@Broncobowsher is giving some good advice on upside down bushings.

I don't know where @LoneRanger is getting your numbers. (Don't care...) The factory D44 has 12 degrees of intrinsic caster between the pinion and the king pin. So when the wedges are zero, the pinion is 8, and the caster is 4. Lifting the suspension by 2.5 inches on a 32.5 inch radius arm gives you 4.4 degrees. So if you mounted the factory front end into factory arms and dropped them 2.5 inches, the pinion would then point up 12.4 degrees. And the caster would be -0.4. In order to get to +7 you need to rotate 7.4 degrees.

You said you wanted 5 degrees of caster, and I'm not going to argue. (because you don't) If that's what you want, you only need to rotate 5.4 more degrees. Your mileage may vary...

I gotta go.

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I really appreciate it. They have my Dana 44 on their jig now and I want to get this right. I’m heeding your advice and looking for 7degrees when I’m done. So if I want to use 2 degree bushings (and I do because they are sitting on my front porch as we speak), stock radius arms and 31” tires on a 2.5” lift how far of a rotation do I need to go? For reference they have the pinion at 10 degrees (assuming a zero degree bushing) and the driver side is reading 1.95 degrees of caster and the passenger at 1.05 degrees. Thank you!!

 

[jamesroney]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, I really appreciate it. They have my Dana 44 on their jig now and I want to get this right. I’m heeding your advice and looking for 7degrees when I’m done. So if I want to use 2 degree bushings (and I do because they are sitting on my front porch as we speak), stock radius arms and 31” tires on a 2.5” lift how far of a rotation do I need to go? For reference they have the pinion at 10 degrees (assuming a zero degree bushing) and the driver side is reading 1.95 degrees of caster and the passenger at 1.05 degrees. Thank you!!

You do recognize that once you cut off the knuckles...you no longer have any reference for where they were. So at that point...there is no more talking about "more" or "less" or "how-far"

That ship has sailed.

This is exactly why I was adamant about you getting this right BEFORE you took the housing out of the Bronco.

So let's start from where we are:

1. Are you cutting off the wedges?

2. How are you using your 2 degree bushings? Standard orientation, reverse orientation, or neutral? (meaning one is upside down like @Broncobowsher noted you can do...)

One the knuckles come off, the wedges can ONLY provide you with pinion angle. Where do you want the pinion pointing? Because the c-bushings and wedge angle will define pinion angle ONLY.

So if your driveshaft angles were acceptable when stock, then the pinion will roll 4 degrees UP, (total of 12) at 2.5 inches lift. But you are taking away 2 degrees of pinion angle correction in your 2 degree poly bushing. So your pinion is going to be sitting at 10 degrees.

With your pinion at +10, and you want +7 caster...You need to roll the inner-C BACK an incremental 5 degrees.

At the end, if you keep your wedges where they are...You want 10 degrees of pinion, AT 7 degrees of caster. (AND 2 degrees of wedge angle)

I hope that makes sense. You can take this info to the shop and if he doesn't understand it...you can call me.

 

[TheLimeRanger]

You do recognize that once you cut off the knuckles...you no longer have any reference for where they were. So at that point...there is no more talking about "more" or "less" or "how-far"

That ship has sailed.

This is exactly why I was adamant about you getting this right BEFORE you took the housing out of the Bronco.

So let's start from where we are:

1. Are you cutting off the wedges?

2. How are you using your 2 degree bushings? Standard orientation, reverse orientation, or neutral? (meaning one is upside down like @Broncobowsher noted you can do...)

One the knuckles come off, the wedges can ONLY provide you with pinion angle. Where do you want the pinion pointing? Because the c-bushings and wedge angle will define pinion angle ONLY.

So if your driveshaft angles were acceptable when stock, then the pinion will roll 4 degrees UP, (total of 12) at 2.5 inches lift. But you are taking away 2 degrees of pinion angle correction in your 2 degree poly bushing. So your pinion is going to be sitting at 10 degrees.

With your pinion at +10, and you want +7 caster...You need to roll the inner-C BACK an incremental 5 degrees.

At the end, if you keep your wedges where they are...You want 10 degrees of pinion, AT 7 degrees of caster. (AND 2 degrees of wedge angle)

I hope that makes sense. You can take this info to the shop and if he doesn't understand it...you can

You do recognize that once you cut off the knuckles...you no longer have any reference for where they were. So at that point...there is no more talking about "more" or "less" or "how-far"

That ship has sailed.

This is exactly why I was adamant about you getting this right BEFORE you took the housing out of the Bronco.

So let's start from where we are:

1. Are you cutting off the wedges?

2. How are you using your 2 degree bushings? Standard orientation, reverse orientation, or neutral? (meaning one is upside down like @Broncobowsher noted you can do...)

One the knuckles come off, the wedges can ONLY provide you with pinion angle. Where do you want the pinion pointing? Because the c-bushings and wedge angle will define pinion angle ONLY.

So if your driveshaft angles were acceptable when stock, then the pinion will roll 4 degrees UP, (total of 12) at 2.5 inches lift. But you are taking away 2 degrees of pinion angle correction in your 2 degree poly bushing. So your pinion is going to be sitting at 10 degrees.

With your pinion at +10, and you want +7 caster...You need to roll the inner-C BACK an incremental 5 degrees.

At the end, if you keep your wedges where they are...You want 10 degrees of pinion, AT 7 degrees of caster. (AND 2 degrees of wedge angle)

I hope that makes sense. You can take this info to the shop and if he doesn't understand it...you can .

Amazing thank you!!
Wedges staying put
2 degree bushings in the traditional way
Great info and insight I cannot thank you enough!

 

[TheLimeRanger]

You do recognize that once you cut off the knuckles...you no longer have any reference for where they were. So at that point...there is no more talking about "more" or "less" or "how-far"

That ship has sailed.

This is exactly why I was adamant about you getting this right BEFORE you took the housing out of the Bronco.

So let's start from where we are:

1. Are you cutting off the wedges?

2. How are you using your 2 degree bushings? Standard orientation, reverse orientation, or neutral? (meaning one is upside down like @Broncobowsher noted you can do...)

One the knuckles come off, the wedges can ONLY provide you with pinion angle. Where do you want the pinion pointing? Because the c-bushings and wedge angle will define pinion angle ONLY.

So if your driveshaft angles were acceptable when stock, then the pinion will roll 4 degrees UP, (total of 12) at 2.5 inches lift. But you are taking away 2 degrees of pinion angle correction in your 2 degree poly bushing. So your pinion is going to be sitting at 10 degrees.

With your pinion at +10, and you want +7 caster...You need to roll the inner-C BACK an incremental 5 degrees.

At the end, if you keep your wedges where they are...You want 10 degrees of pinion, AT 7 degrees of caster. (AND 2 degrees of wedge angle)

I hope that makes sense. You can take this info to the shop and if he doesn't understand it...you can call me.

So one last clarification. Pinion angle at 10 then the c’s need to be at 5 degrees to get 7 degrees of caster with 2 degree bushings ?

 

[fishinman78]

You posted you were not doing this work on the axle. This is a job I have done several times. I take the axle out from under the truck. I cut off the wedges after marking the outermost location of the wedges. I then take the inner C's off the axle. I then cut the track bar mount off. I clean the axle tubes and tape the wedges back on the axle. I reinstall the axle using 4 degree c bushings. You can use any bushing you want. I just use the 4 in case I need to change some angles, it gives me some adjustment. I then set the pinion angle, tighten the c's on the control arms when you get the pinion angle where you want it. Then I set the C's back on the axle tubes. I rotate then to - 7*. I take a cold chisel and mark the C in relation to the axle tube. I then tack weld the wedges in place. Take the axle back out. Clean up all the places that need to be welded. Weld it up and start your install. If you missed with your angle you can adjust with different c bushings and / or use some offset caster bushings to fine tune your new alignment. I don't know how someone can take an axle to a shop and have this done just by bringing the axle and some numbers and expect it to be correct. So the ability to adjust is key. Like I said I dont care what bushings you use. if you get it right it dont matter.

This is exactly how I did mine as well

 

[jamesroney]

So one last clarification. Pinion angle at 10 then the c’s need to be at 5 degrees to get 7 degrees of caster with 2 degree bushings ?

Not quite.

Radius arm down 4, Wedges down 2. Pinion angle at 10. C's need to be at 7 degrees.

If you didn't use 2 degree bushings, it would be
Radius arm down 4, Wedges down 4, Pinion angle at 12, C's at 7 degrees.

 

[LoneRanger]

No need to cut the wedges on an EB housing at 2.5 inches of lift. They are pretty much perfect for front driveshaft angle as long as you are running the factory dana 20 in the factory location with factory radius arms.

Agree on Track bar mount, and it will end up crooked. But at 2.5 lift, it will work fine.

0 degree rubber bushings work great. Every Bronco ever made left the factory with them.

@Broncobowsher is giving some good advice on upside down bushings.

I don't know where @LoneRanger is getting your numbers. (Don't care...) The factory D44 has 12 degrees of intrinsic caster between the pinion and the king pin. So when the wedges are zero, the pinion is 8, and the caster is 4. Lifting the suspension by 2.5 inches on a 32.5 inch radius arm gives you 4.4 degrees. So if you mounted the factory front end into factory arms and dropped them 2.5 inches, the pinion would then point up 12.4 degrees. And the caster would be -0.4. In order to get to +7 you need to rotate 7.4 degrees.

You said you wanted 5 degrees of caster, and I'm not going to argue. (because you don't) If that's what you want, you only need to rotate 5.4 more degrees. Your mileage may vary...

I gotta go.

To be clear: I am NOT getting or giving ANY numbers to anyone about anything.

Thanks-

L.R.

 

[jamesroney]

To be clear: I am NOT getting or giving ANY numbers to anyone about anything.

Thanks-

L.R.

Whoops! Sorry about that mistake. I typed "Loneranger" when I meant "LimeRanger" (op)

I'll go fix it.