Let’s talk headlights! Halogen vs LED vs HID vs aftermarket vs retrofit (and more!)

[73azbronco]

Pretty sure those HID gets him pulled over for being to bright and scattered. Appears to be no cutoff line like you see on factory HID setups, which do not blind folks and auto level.

I'm pretty sure the brightness of bulb does not effect where the beam goes, it matters where the bulb actually sits that messes up the output beam pattern.

 

[Heus33]

Pretty sure those HID gets him pulled over for being to bright and scattered. Appears to be no cutoff line like you see on factory HID setups, which do not blind folks and auto level.

I'm pretty sure the brightness of bulb does not effect where the beam goes, it matters where the bulb actually sits that messes up the output beam pattern.

This is exactly the kind of misinformation I am trying to clear up so thanks for bringing this up.

HID bulbs in REFLECTOR housings (those designed for halogen bulbs) create the glare and scatter that you're referencing (similar to driving around with your highbeams on).

A proper HID projector setup (like we sell) provides the proper cutoff, eliminates glare, and puts the light were you need it (on the road) and not scattered around. If you review the first post, you'll see this explained and a few photos as well. I'll attach a couple more pics to this reply as well which show the cutoff of our 7" Bi-Xenon projector headlights. The three pics attached are all the same projector that we use in our lights. Just three different photos from customers.

 

[Broncobowsher]

It is nice to read that people are realizing that beam pattern matters. Bright (blinding) lights are easy to achieve. A good beam pattern is much harder.

About 15 years ago I dipped my toe into the world of automotive lighting. Did some HID conversions. One set in some offroad lights worked great on the trail, but the glare off of them was super hideous. There is no way you could run them if anyone was in front of you. But by yourself I loved them. I also did a street bike, HID in a reflector housing. Can't be done, doesn't work, well I did it. Took a shroud to cut half the light off, get the depth right, ran it for years and never got flashed. I think it was mostly luck that it worked. Lost high beam. There is too much good stuff out today to do that again. But it was an interesting learning experience.

Since then I have learned a bit more. Had a good half day talk with a true automotive lighting engineer. Learned a lot more little stuff like the beam pattern isn't perfect for a reason. There is an intentional little bit of glare high and to the right to illuminate street signs. So much engineering that goes into OEM headlights.

 

[Heus33]

Here's another pic that might help put things into perspective.

 

[Bruners4]

I had some HID bulbs in a '91 F150 and fully understand the light scattering and blinding of oncoming drivers. Learned the hard way by spending cash. But I did discover an odd effect that the HID had at speed on washboard roads. They would act like the arc was bouncing with the washboards! It made it difficult to run the higher speeds on these types of roads with the lights 'bouncing'. I had checked everything to make sure that something wasn't loose but found nothing. Ended up selling the F150 after picking up a '96 Bronco. I installed quality LED replacements and they work great.
Looking forward to additional information on this subject for my '68 EB.

 

[Steve83]

...putting a brighter bulb into a housing that wasn't designed for it will mess with the optics and cause glare. Similar to driving around with your high beams on.

But it's not the brightness that causes the glare/hi-beam effect. It's the location of the light source. Incandescent (halogen) bulbs are designed to have the filament in a particular location (near the tip of the bulb, laterally) to work with a particular housing/reflector design. HIDs & LEDs are laid out differently - their light source is much larger, and oriented differently (axially to the bulb/reflector/vehicle). So putting (e.g.) an H7 LED or HID into a housing/reflector designed for an H7 filament (or vice versa) will cause the light to scatter - whether or not it's brighter.

The bulb being simply brighter only means it puts out more light; it doesn't directly affect the pattern it throws. But there is no housing/reflector design that's specific to a certain brightness - you won't find a headlight designer/manufacturer who says "this headlight will work with a 6,000-lumen LED, but not a 12,000-lumen LED."

Put an LED into one of your LED headlights, and look at the pattern it throws on the wall (preferably ~40' away). Then swap it to an incandescent and re-check. The 2nd pattern will be different, even if the 2nd bulb is dimmer.

I'm pretty sure the brightness of bulb does not effect where the beam goes, it matters where the bulb actually sits that messes up the output beam pattern.

I guess my reply was a little late... %)

 

[Heus33]

But it's not the brightness that causes the glare/hi-beam effect. It's the location of the light source. Incandescent (halogen) bulbs are designed to have the filament in a particular location (near the tip of the bulb, laterally) to work with a particular housing/reflector design. HIDs & LEDs are laid out differently - their light source is much larger, and oriented differently (axially to the bulb/reflector/vehicle). So putting (e.g.) an H7 LED or HID into a housing/reflector designed for an H7 filament (or vice versa) will cause the light to scatter - whether or not it's brighter.

The bulb being simply brighter only means it puts out more light; it doesn't directly affect the pattern it throws. But there is no housing/reflector design that's specific to a certain brightness - you won't find a headlight designer/manufacturer who says "this headlight will work with a 6,000-lumen LED, but not a 12,000-lumen LED."

Put an LED into one of your LED headlights, and look at the pattern it throws on the wall (preferably ~40' away). Then swap it to an incandescent and re-check. The 2nd pattern will be different, even if the 2nd bulb is dimmer.I guess my reply was a little late... %)

Position of the light source does impact output (which is true for Halogen, LED, and HID) but amount of light also plays a critical role. For example, when you put your high beam the position of the bulb does not change, but the output does.

 

[Broncobowsher]

If you look at a conventional headlight, the high beam filament is in a slightly different location than the low beam. The location change is what changes the pattern projected. The output of the headlamp is generally very close and in some cases is the same.

Many (OEM) HID headlights the high beam is nothing more than a solenoid that moves a shroud that creates the proper cutoff line for the low beam pattern.

 

[Steve83]

...when you put your high beam the position of the bulb does not change, but the output does.

There are 2 filaments in the bulb, and the high-beam filament IS in a different location, so the location of the light source DOES change. That's why the pattern changes.

Again, it has nothing to do with the actual brightness.

Many (OEM) HID headlights the high beam is nothing more than a solenoid that moves a shroud that creates the proper cutoff line for the low beam pattern.

Another reason for them working that way is that, unlike incandescent & LED, HID has a startup delay that varies by ambient temperature, and bulb quality. So the low beam can't actually turn off when switching to hi, and hi can't be an independent HID. If they were totally independent bulbs, you'd be blind for a few seconds when switching to hi-beam, and again when switching back to low-beam. So for HID, it's safer & cheaper to just use 1 bulb, and re-aim it somehow (a shutter, or a position motor).

 

[hankjr]

I had some HID bulbs in a '91 F150 and fully understand the light scattering and blinding of oncoming drivers. Learned the hard way by spending cash. But I did discover an odd effect that the HID had at speed on washboard roads. They would act like the arc was bouncing with the washboards! It made it difficult to run the higher speeds on these types of roads with the lights 'bouncing'. I had checked everything to make sure that something wasn't loose but found nothing. Ended up selling the F150 after picking up a '96 Bronco. I installed quality LED replacements and they work great.
Looking forward to additional information on this subject for my '68 EB.

the arc is not a physical entity (like a filament or a diode) so yes, vibration does have an impact. the voltage will change depending on the length of the arc. the ballast can/should accommodate for some of this. i personally know that at one time, Raptor testing in Michigan was causing arcs to shut off and not restrike under super extreme circumstances (also causing bumper fascia to break off). programming changes in the ballast allowed for greater voltage range and allowed the ballast to restrike and not simply shut down

Hank

 

[hankjr]

All. look at this comparison image. it shows the difference in emission patterns of a filament, HID arc, and an LED chip.



the size / shape differences really matter when you then consider how the optics gather light and create the cutoff/manage glare (without a shutter in this image) as required in EU style optics (US beam pattern is different).





if one were to simply drop in an LED or HID retrofit into a system designed around a halogen light source, the different shape of the emission source could wreck havoc with the beam pattern depending on how the optics are designed



This is why design intent OF THE SYSTEM is so important and is a function of brightness, physical emission source shape/location and the ability (efficiency) of the optics to gather and distribute light.

It is possible to design an LED retrofit that will work and provide a legal beam pattern in a replaceable bulb system, but its not that simple and in the US, retrofit LED headlamp (non sealed / replaceable styles) are not legal though readily available. NHTSA regulations have not caught up with this yet.

 

[Heus33]

Very good points everyone! I think we are all in agreement that HID and LED bulbs in a reflector housing is bad.

Using proper optics for the light source is vital to getting the intended output.

 

[Broncobowsher]

And now it comes down to finding a good headlight that looks the part. Plenty of modern tuner looking lights on the market. But in a classic vehicle, especially one that is trying to keep an original look to it, the modern lights just look wrong. Thus the H4 housing is about as modern as you can get and still look vintage. Which leaves out the HID/LED lighting options.

 

[Heus33]

And now it comes down to finding a good headlight that looks the part. Plenty of modern tuner looking lights on the market. But in a classic vehicle, especially one that is trying to keep an original look to it, the modern lights just look wrong. Thus the H4 housing is about as modern as you can get and still look vintage. Which leaves out the HID/LED lighting options.

If you are dead set on a fluted lens option, I would recommend the Cibie H4s. I ran them on my Red Bronco.

Obviously you're limited on output with a fluted lens light but I've found the Cibie H4s to be the best of the bunch.

We build custom lights that can match nearly any style but they do have a clear lens. It comes down to customer preference and performance designation.

Here's a pic of my old red bronco running Cibie H4s

 

[Heus33]

And here's another one that had more of a modern build to it. This one had a nice blacked out set - these are our NightTracker lights.

https://www.hidprojectors.com/collections/7-lights/products/nighttracker

 

[Heus33]

And a few more examples where more 'modern' lighting matched the theme of the build.

 

[Jdgephar]

I'm happy with the Hella vision plus H4 conversion. The glass is a little more flat compared to OEM, but they work great!

If I wanted to spend the coin, theres the KC Hilites Gravity that looks more like the originals.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[68ford]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B42p0CWBnSG/?igshid=7wgvm8fheofh

Installed a set of Grote LEDs. Amazing amount of light. The most OE looking LED assemblies I have seen. Not flat so they meet the light ring correctly. Plug and play as well. No adjustment required either. Comparable to Truck-lite who makes KC LEDs

 

[Heus33]

https://www.instagram.com/p/B42p0CWBnSG/?igshid=7wgvm8fheofh

Installed a set of Grote LEDs. Amazing amount of light. The most OE looking LED assemblies I have seen. Not flat so they meet the light ring correctly. Plug and play as well. No adjustment required either. Comparable to Truck-lite who makes KC LEDs

Those lights are a decent reflector based LED. They are made in China and the same generic option that gets rebranded for companies like Quadratec and Anzo (just a different logo on the center bar).

 

[Comemonday71]

Hey Heus33, Can't afford your HID's but will some day. Did install some of you r halos. Really like them!