NORRA class and rules

[markw]

Agree with this. I can tell you that shock related fabrication adds a huge amount to the cost and complexity of a build. And I believe it really levels the playing field. Not that much fun when the average bucket list guy has to compete against high dollar sponsored teams and has no realistic chance of winning. Keeping the cost as reasonable as possible I think is the key to getting more people involved in a really fun adventure.

 

[68ford]

My shock suggestion was meant to be simple and I think got exaggerated. My intended idea was to let guys realistically run 1 2.5dia bypass shock. With less than 10in travel, there no need to run longer than a 10in shock or more than 1. Fabrication would be minimal and shock price would be minimal. I guess rich guys could run a 10in travel 4.5dia 7 tube bypass but it likely is not going be much better than a 2.5 maybe 3.0.

 

[68ford]

My real main thought was to let the guys willing to put the time in testing and tuning have a well earned advantage.

 

[Bukin 67]

My shock suggestion was meant to be simple and I think got exaggerated. My intended idea was to let guys realistically run 1 2.5dia bypass shock. With less than 10in travel, there no need to run longer than a 10in shock or more than 1. Fabrication would be minimal and shock price would be minimal. I guess rich guys could run a 10in travel 4.5dia 7 tube bypass but it likely is not going be much better than a 2.5 maybe 3.0.

Hey Wayne, you just love bigger shocks and bypasses like the rest of us!
The problem is, like Mark was saying it would open a can of worms, because what we're attempting to do is get away from mods that weren't available in the individual class years that were developed so we can get back to the spirit of what NORRA is trying to do with the old iron racer world.
NORRA made some pretty in-depth changes when they did the major reclassification about 3 years ago and designed new classes. They broke down and subdivided so everyone could find a home class to race in.
2.5's and bypasses are the norm in Vintage class. That's the earliest class you can have bypass. The earliest to have 2.5s is Challenger.
So all we're saying is the work had already been done for that mod and there's already a class for it.
Now the big question is, when are you going to join us in Baja!

 

[68ford]

Randy, if I get to the point of racing NORRA, as much as my bronco would so cool to race, I would probably bring the door slammer TT, the reason I bought it was to keep me from beating on the bronco. After this year's winner, my race truck totally has a chance of over all

 

[Bukin 67]

Randy, if I get to the point of racing NORRA, as much as my bronco would so cool to race, I would probably bring the door slammer TT, the reason I bought it was to keep me from beating on the bronco. After this year's winner, my race truck totally has a chance of over all

That was pretty cool wasn't it! You need to do this. We'll be starting a M1K 2000 thread soon!

 

[markw]

Bringing this back. Getting close to the 500 and too soon registration for the 1000. Looks like Chris is doing some good testing and we're making some changes to our induction system to maximize the new engine. Starts getting real now again.
Back to the Pioneer rules. No recent word from Chris Wilson and I'm sure everyone with a stake in the class is really curious. I agree with Randy, Todd and Andrew that the shocks should not extend past the inner fenders but shouldn't be limited in number, recognizing probably no one is going to get more than 2 per corner packed in there. Personally I'd allow two shocks and hydraulic bumps in the front as long as shock length was limited. I think that would really level the field and still allow decent speeds and not beat the crew too badly. Chris we'd love to hear from you! Mark

 

[baja-chris]

I have received several private emails regarding Pioneer 4x4 rule opinions and there is not a consensus. At this point I have sufficient feedback and need to just make some decisions, compose the updated rules and post them. This is for 2020.

The upcoming Mexican 500 will use the rules as they are on the website www.norra.com

 

[Bukin 67]

Too bad there aren't any Pioneer 4x4's running in the 500, at least not at this point.
We've made the leap into the next class, just what we are - LEGENDS! ;D;D

 

[markw]

Rapido, LEGENDARY driver!
Chris when do you think you'll make an announcement? I'd love to read all the private emails, I'm sure they'd be entertaining! Not sure I'd want to be in your position but someone has to do it. Looking forward to the catfight either way!

 

[landshark99]

At this point i have made my voice known through public and private - nothing earth shattering or unknown from me. I have too much time and money into my Pioneer Class bronco and will be sticking with my build and not changing anything drastically

Whatever the final decision and rules are for 2020, we are sure to have fun whatever class we end up in.

 

[markw]

Hey Chris that's our deal too. No way I can go back to Pioneer now.

 

[baja-chris]

I've submitted the proposed Pioneer rule package to Eliseo for approval. This applies to both Pioneer 4x4 and Pioneer Truck (with the only difference being solid front axle and max 108" wheelbase for the 4x4), otherwise same rules for Pioneer trucks. At this time I am not proposing changes to Legend rules so anyone caught out by the new Pioneer rules can run Legend if they were previously Pioneer legal. Eliseo may opt to accept or modify this.

The spirit of this category is to provide a home for production based 4x4 Trucks / SUVs as raced in the 1967-1975 era. Vehicles in this category must have working 4wd of a solid front axle design and with a wheelbase not to exceed 108” at ride height.

• Body must maintain design and style which was available in 1975 or older. Fiberglass replacement panels allowed only for hood and fenders. Flared and/or cut out fender opening allowed. Cut outs in hood for air cleaner allowed. Hood and front / rear fenders must be mounted on car at start of event. Stock grill required of a design matching the body style. Body must be mounted to chassis in the same location as stock however body lifts are allowed. Channeled or drop bodies are not allowed.
• Chassis (frame) must be stock 1975 or older. Frame may be reinforced. Frame material may not be removed other than to provide for bolt/hardware attachment. Additionally, the front of the frame may be bevel cut from the top front on the frame to a location on the bottom of the frame 8” back from the front of the frame to provide ground clearance and improve approach angle. Examples of frame material removal which are NOT allowed include clearancing for axle travel, tie rod clearance, or shock/bump stop clearance/mounting.
• Wheelbase must remain stock however any stock wheelbase is allowed in this class as long as it does not exceed 108".
• Tires shall have a maximum diameter of 33” as specified/marketed by the manufacturer (not as measured).
• Rims shall have a maximum diameter of 15” as marketed by the manufacturer. Any offset is ok. Wheel spacers are not allowed. Beadlock wheels are not allowed.
• Engine shall be of a design/type which was sold for the vehicle model being raced. Regardless of OEM offerings, the largest engine allowed in Pioneer is a small block with 4.060” bore and stock stroke. Specifically the largest displacement allowed is: Chevy 350 (361 cu in), Ford 351 (363 cu in) or Dodge 360 (371 cu in). Engine items with no restriction include engine internals, cylinder heads (provided number of valves per cylinder remains stock for the vehicle), camshaft (however must remain in stock location), intake and exhaust manifolds. Fuel delivery must be via a carburetor. Fuel injection of any type is not allowed. Ignition must use a mechanical distributor. Engines must be naturally aspirated (forced induction not allowed). Modern engines such as GM LS series or Ford Modular series are not allowed. Modern large bore small blocks such as recent Ford Boss series are not allowed in Pioneer.
• Transmission must be of a design/type which was sold for the vehicle model being raced. Electronic transmission controls are not allowed.
• Rear End must be of a semi-floater design unless the vehicle model being raced came equipped from the factory with a full floating rear end (in this case the rear housing and hub must be stock but may be reinforced/trussed). Semi-float housings may be reinforced/trussed or may be aftermarket fabricated pieces but are limited to a 3.0” housing tube OD. Internals such as axle shafts, differentials/carriers and gears are unrestricted.
• For 4wd vehicles, the front axle must be a stock piece available in 1975 and available for the vehicle model being raced. Reinforcement is allowed. As an example, a front Dana 60 is not allowed on a Bronco but a Dana 44 is allowed even if the vehicle originally came with a Dana 30. Internals including axles, diffs/carriers, gears, lockouts are unrestricted.
• Brakes are open. Aftermarket disk brakes are allowed on all 4 corners, however the 15” rim limitation will self-limit rotor diameter. Power assist of any type is allowed if desired.
• Steering must be of a design that was available in 1975 for the vehicle model being raced (ie box or rack). Power steering may be retrofitted using OEM or aftermarket pumps/boxes. Steering linkages may be stock or aftermarket/fabricated however must be of the same basic design as was available from the factory in 1975 (ie no relay arm steering). Ram assist and full hydraulic steering are not allowed (as these were not part of OEM design in 1975).
• Suspension must be stock with the exception of spring rates/shape, and shocks. Stock suspension arms and linkages are required but may be reinforced. Aftermarket / fabricated arms are not allowed. Suspension arms must mount in stock locations using stock style bushings however mounting reinforcements are allowed (ie double shear, weld in washers, etc.) No non-stock links may be used (aka traction bars).
• Track Width must be stock as delivered from the factory measured WMS to WMS. Given the suspension rules, it should not be possible to legally widen the truck at the WMS (Wheel Mounting Surface).
• Springs: Coil springs may be of any length/rate but must mount in the stock mounts. Leaf springs must be stock length but may be of any rate/arch. Stock shackles are required but may be reinforced. Stock bushing types must be used (no heims or spherical bushings).
• Shocks: Coilovers are not allowed. Bypass shocks are not allowed (internal or external). Shock diameter is a maximum of 2” OD. Remote reservoirs are allowed. The number of shocks per wheel is open however one of these must be mounted in the stock upper and lower mounting locations to restrict travel to near stock. The mounting locations of additional shocks is open.
• Bump Stops must of rubber or poly or similar. Hydraulic air bumps are not allowed.

 

[Rox Crusher]

watching with interest...……....looking forward to knowing when the Pioneer class rules are set in stone so I can decide which I can afford to consider...…………..

for the guys currently competing in Pioneer class in 2020...…..would appreciate insight into whether you will stay in Pioneer or just move on up to Legends since those rules appear to be remaining unchanged

I can't do anything for 2020 but wondering what to do in 2021 if I can muster a sufficient "investment plan"

 

[markw]

Looks good! We may have some company in Legends.

 

[Bukin 67]

Thank you Chris. I can see you really put some thought into this to help keep the Pioneer class as it once was. This will entice more Pioneer Bronco entrees IMO.

I want to make sure I'm clear on 2 items:

• ... the largest engine allowed in Pioneer is a small block with 4.060” bore and stock stroke.

* NO strokers; 302 based: 331, 347, 363 and 351 based: 393, 408, 427, etc

• Shocks: ...The number of shocks per wheel is open however one of these must be mounted in the stock upper and lower mounting locations to restrict travel to near stock. The mounting locations of additional shocks is open.

* If 2 shocks, 1 of them must be in stock upper & lower mounting location. If only running 1 shock per wheel, it must be in stock upper & lower mounting location. This would mean no hoops if only running 1 shock.

 

[BajaBronco]

My team and I have been discussing the same. We currently have a 331 stroker. Power can be achieved the old way too, I spose as our old '69 Mexican 100 winner was not stroked nor is the Colt Bronco and they perform well.

In the shock dept, we run our rear shocks on stock mounts in the rear, all 4 are factory Ford pieces, .....but I think we may be the only ones...however, thats how it was done back in the day.

Andrew

 

[markw]

Rox, there are a few of us here who can advise based on our experiences. Chris, Randy and I would be good resources. I've developed some ideas on the process that I think would work well and the new rules will really help keep costs down (not reasonable, just down) as they eliminate a lot of expensive, trick or custom parts that really drive the costs up.

 

[DelDiablo]

Boyd Jaynes here, it seems we weren't invited to the party but nevertheless I’m here, better late than never I guess. I’m sure my racing partner Brian Godfrey will have his own .02 cents to add as well.

I bought my Bronco on Craigslist in 2008 specifically to race NORRA. It isn’t a Stroppe, it never raced, and it wasn’t frame off restored before we started racing it. I spent every dime I had to make it to the startline every spring. Even if I had trouble paying my rent I would still enter the MEX1K. After 10 years of racing at NORRA I have invested not only my hard-earned money but also vast amounts of time into how to make our truck better…, WITHIN THE RULES. I didn’t ask for the rules to be changed when I couldn’t figure something out…, and when the rules did change (2.5” to 2.0” shocks) we made the change at considerable expense in order to remain in the class for which our truck was designed. It took countless mistakes, a couple of years of being dead last guy in the field before we started to figure it out. We read the rules and built a truck based on them and were always considerate of the way they raced back in the day. We didn’t have a wealth of Bronco or vintage racing knowledge to fall back on, I didn’t even own 3 wrenches when I bought my Bronco, but I was eager to figure things out. Now, while everyone wants to talk about the spirit of NORRA, this conversation, a discussion about what should and shouldn’t be allowed, on an online chat room... is really NOT the spirit of NORRA. If you think a rule change is in order because after a couple of races you didn’t get the results you wanted, then perhaps competitive sports isn’t for you. How about come back next year smarter, better prepared and try again. The rules that have been in place for pioneer for ten years are pretty fair, definitely need some clarification in areas, but pretty reasonable. I for one don’t want to be forced to race in another class (with vehicles that are more modified) because all of a sudden the rules aren’t working out for some people. Apparently a lot of the rumbling in regards to what is “fair” and what isn’t, comes from the other Pioneer era classes. Where do we draw the line in the quest to “level the playing field”? Where does the definition of “stock” & “vintage” intersect with what is known to be period correct, the availability of old parts and what is safe? I don’t envy Chris Wilson who has a tough job listening to what seems to be a sudden avalanche of whining from racers as he attempts to hone the rules a little better. It isn’t just in Pioneer either, it’s merely a sign that the happiest race on earth… is also an ACTUAL fucking race.

So now a catalog of what apparently some of you think are “trick parts”...
Let’s start with shock heat exchangers. If you think a finned vessel that your oil goes through to attempt to scrub some heat off is exotic, then you must be easily impressed. You may notice that we only have one shock per wheel rather than 2-3 like most of the other competitors. For us to stay within the rules and not break the bank on refab-ing the truck we elected to use heat exchangers for simplicity. We actually took off the heat exchangers from the front shocks to further simplify the setup. Again, shock coolers are not exotic, not hard to get (Fox and King both have one available), guys made them by hand back in the day.

Shock length / Travel
Stock length leafs, shackles, intact stock coil buckets, and no modification to the frame will limit travel. If someone wants to lift their Bronco to the moon and think they are going to have more usable travel, they are mistaken and will probably be out of the race on the first day. Even the Bluetorch Bronco which is supposedly the benchmark for period-correct admittedly doesn’t have “stock” shock mounts. I do agree that stock pivot locations should not be changed to stay within the pioneer class. The bottom line is a longer shock isn’t going to miraculously provide more travel and all of us forced to run an interpretation of stock, seems ridiculous. The rules as they are written will limit usable travel. Any additional rules will just create an opportunity for any real racer with ingenuity to interpret for a real advantage over what was conceptually intended (more rules = $$$).

Engines should be carbureted, I don’t think there is really any question that this is the right thing for pioneer. I have a 302 block stroked to 347 with a carb. Actually a pretty mild powerplant running on pump gas through a notoriously weak-link, a C4 transmission. I would say to anyone with a similar Bronco to what we all run at NORRA, who thinks a ton of HP will win this race… good luck, go for it.

Radius arms are zero advantage unless they are longer and/or connected via something other than rubber donuts. We are going to put the same old stock (bent) pair we ran for 9 years back on and not think about it again. Radius arms don’t make you faster.

Yes, we have Wilwood brakes. Apparently ‘yall have a case of brake envy I read so many comments about them. We couldn’t get the ones we had before to work, so we threw everything we could at our brake issues to try and be safer. We couldn’t get the fancy Wilwoods to work very well either for the first 2 years and now after literally years of trial and error (risking life and limb) we finally have decent brakes. Rules should never be changed to force any of us to use “vintage” or vintage approved, “period correct” brake kits from dubious recreational bronco suppliers. We drive the piss out of our old ‘68 and the brakes keep us from dying. If they fit inside a 15” rim you should be allowed to use them.

This brings me to my final point.
We work hard all year on our program by making and maintaining relationships with companies that help us show up in April to race. We are marketing guys in our day jobs, that is what we do. Some of you are Bronco experts but we don’t mock your knowledge because we think it gives you an unfair advantage. If anything, we have done our job too good. Because of our efforts, you guys all think we are some sort of trophy truck team. It’s myself and Brian. That’s it. We have to keep moving the Bronco between our two tiny garages because we don’t have a proper shop space, we don’t even own a welder. I see the workspace most of you enjoy and I’m jealous but not envious to the point of malicious. We have had success because we come prepared and we don’t break our shit. Our trucks are all VERY close in configuration, power, and have similar performance limits. Let’s sort this out and continue to race together!

VIVA BAJA
-Boyd

PS. if any of you would like to come have a look at our truck and point at what they think is an unfair advantage, "trick" or "exotic" parts then come on over but you better bring some beer.

 

[Rox Crusher]

Rox, there are a few of us here who can advise based on our experiences. Chris, Randy and I would be good resources. I've developed some ideas on the process that I think would work well and the new rules will really help keep costs down (not reasonable, just down) as they eliminate a lot of expensive, trick or custom parts that really drive the costs up.

Mark

I know Chris well and met Randy when he joined us on Herd of Broncos Baja adventure back in 17.

I travel to Chico on business a couple times a year so maybe I can get up with you on one of those visits.

I won’t be able to afford changing stuff around to suit evolving rules.