NORRA class and rules

[markw]

Budget? What's this budget?

 

[Bukin 67]

There's a different term we use in my industry. Instead of 'budget' we say 'planned investment'.
At least that makes it sound a little better I think

I'm glad that in the end we're all Bronco Brothers looking to have some fun south of the border. I'm really looking forward to your ideas Todd, and providing Patty's dad stays on the upswing and continues to recover from his stroke, I still hope to see you in Big Bear if you're still planning no going. I'm going to try and find an air b&b of take the motorhome and find a campground close by.
I still need to mount my new p.s. pump on the Bukineer and do a few other things.

 

[BajaBronco]

I get all excited about building a new racer too, but for Legends! Good point Mark about the everyman class and wanting to have it promoted a few years. I have a customers race Bronco coming in and it may be a perfect example for the class change when it happens. Even if I didn't always race Pioneer, I think it should be a place where trucks are simple and honor the Pioneer term.

Mark I see the point on the arms. And having bent one or two, I can see wanting a safer part, or more so wanting a safer arm after taking some apart that had really thin areas from previous rust where the rad arm bushings go. When I bent mine I was going like 45 in the dust and dropped the wheel into a cut out. My bad.

I think track width aids stability. I have some KH 15x8 Jeep wheels here that dont fit over Chevy disc and Ford Disc brakes, but I have vintage Superiors, US INdys, modern INdys, and others here that do ....trying to think of what wheel wouldn't fit over those OEM brakes. I guess other newer disc brakes might present a fitment issue. maybe should be in Legends? Chevy disc calipers are 76, make the Pioneer cut......Ford calipers are 76...make the Pioneer cut. Wilwood....otras....Maybe LEGENDary stopping power for another class.

I too dont want to have the class thing contested at contingincy again - just sucked and put a bad taste in my mouth for the first day and rest of that day. My fault for letting it get to me....

 

[markw]

Andrew, great points. You and Todd are highly respected here and your opinions carry weight so your comments are appreciated.
Interesting point on the brakes. Our #66 has stock Chevy brakes all around, no power assist. While not great they are sufficient and will likely be better with some softer pads like EBC Yellow. No doubt in my mind high dollar Wilwoods are not a requirement especially for an everyman class. We run oddball 16" rims and they fit fine.
Thank you for the comments on the radius arms. The Duffs parts are expensive, $800 which is a reasonable price for the design and mfr of a quality part. Perhaps some day they would be willing to offer a racers discount for NORRA participants. It would be the pits to be out of the race because of the failure of a 50 year old part never designed for racing.
There are a lot of beat up Bronco trail rigs out there that would be a great start on a Pioneer everyman class racer. My hope is that some day we can have a class like that which would encourage people to follow the desert racing dream and be part of an awesome experience. Can you imagine even 5 or 6 Broncos in the class? In my case I'd honestly never drive my #66 in the race, it's just too fast and really has to have a driver of Rapido's skill to run safely. But I'd sure consider taking a shot at an everyman Pioneer class!

 

[landshark99]

Mark I see the point on the arms. And having bent one or two, I can see wanting a safer part, or more so wanting a safer arm after taking some apart that had really thin areas from previous rust where the rad arm bushings go.

This is my issue right now, The set I have are a little rotted where the bushings go at the frame rails, looking at 3-4 other sets from the Colorado Group this week - should be able to find a set that will work - and should have a backup set as well. maybe consider something stronger depending on where the rules go but for now I am just replacing.

I am not dead set on Pioneer, I just want to have fun and run with some other Broncos.

 

[BajaBronco]

Copy that. me too. The year we had 9 or so Broncos was super fun and was a tough race. I may be able to source an unrusty pair as I'm looking for a spare set just in case. And looking CA and AZ.

Man 800 for the Duff ones. Honestly weren't even on my radar til this year. Thought only long arms existed in the aftermarket, but makes sense to make them as it seems some parts are drying up.

Shoulda gave a set to the guys who break stuff alot (me).

Mark are you referring to trucks like this that need to come to NORRA?

 

[markw]

Andrew, that is exactly the raw material for an everyman Pioneer racer! I suspect there are several of those around!

 

[House]

Whoa now!
That isn’t your every day fixer upper future racer...
That is a verified veteran racer from the 70’s!

 

[BajaBronco]

BUt still. that kind of carcass could be a good Pioneer type contender.

 

[Bukin 67]

I think we should make a t-shirt ;D

 

[BanditBronco]

Is there any reason you guys aren't considering beefing up a set of stock arms? what about machining new rear bushing ends that are better material like chromo or are just the correct spec and not weakened from rust?

 

[markw]

Well Andrew does race well with others! Well then!

 

[landshark99]

Thanks Andrew, I have a lead on at least three good sets with no rust. We have allot of Bronco hoarders here in Colorado - and not complaining!

 

[ZOSO]

I want to add my 2cents.

You guys keep saying keeping it to a 302 based engine. Well that would mean no strokers as they weren't really around back then either. And if you were to allow them then what would stop someone with deep pockets from building a 370" 8.2" deck from an aftermarket block that could make 600hp. Yet 351w's were out in 69 and by 70 I'm sure a few had been stuffed into broncos. Maybe make it a factory ford block limit. 302 or 351. Maybe just no stroker kits. Then you can even get into aluminum heads and all that jazz. just limit it to factory blocks that way no one can makes tons of power with out the risk of splitting the block. BTW an aftermarket 9.5" deck block can be punched out to 460cid small block.

 

[markw]

And how do you determine whether it's a stroked motor? No time at tech to CC every motor. Pretty easy to spot an aftermarket block or a 9.9 block. The point is to keep it simple as possible. As reasonable as possible. If someone want to race in another class there's nothing to stop them. Pretty sure Rod Hall won more than anyone with a 302 and that would be the idea to emulate.

 

[68ford]

Zoso, with all the suspension limitations, i think anything over 400hp will likely be worse than better. The odds of the increased power breaking stuff in rough areas is probably not worth the little time savings from where you can actually use the power. You mentioned 600hp. With that you definitely need a full floater and a lot more spares. And race tires at that. Mud terrains(which most use) will be torn to pieces. Between double the tire cost, drivetrain cost and fuel consumption, I'm guessing a 600 HP engine adds 20k to 1 race in NORRA all said and done.

 

[markw]

Yes, I agree 100% with 68ford. The chassis is definitely the limitation. And that's the point really. Keep the chassis simple, power reasonable and the costs as reasonable as possible.
I can tell you that 100 mph in Baja in a 92" wheel base Bronco is nerve racking. And without proper chassis upgrades it's actually really dangerous and ultimately destructive to the vehicle even if no crash ensues. Again, that's kind of the point with the limited upgrades in the proposed class. You can have a ton of fun racing against similar vehicles and not trying to be a trophy truck. That's a whole different world. I wouldn't drive my Bronco at the speeds it's capable of but I might take a shot at a lesser beast. My guess is there are a lot of people out there that might like to do the same. It's part of the reason the UTVs are so popular. But oh so boring....compared to a Bronco!

 

[68ford]

I will also add, being I have a Trophy Truck but built back in 08(no comparison to current TTs) and it has a 438 Windsor in it currently, there is way a pair of leaf springs will live withat kind of torque ;D
I know traction bars and torque devices can be made, but I have yet to see any that cycle clean and mimick a set of soft long travel leaf springs path without binding.

 

[baja-chris]

Hi guys, Chris Wilson here from NORRA. Mark pointed me to this thread which I have read. Here are my thoughts on this.

1) I'd like to leave the Legend classes as they are, "stock concept" instead of "stock". BTW, 2 links are allowed in Legend, and 3-4 links are allowed in Challenger. Rear link bars are not allowed in Pioneer so that's another difference between Pioneer and Legend. So Legend is where a car should be if it has extended radius arms or other non stock mods.

2) I'd like to tighten up and clarify the Pioneer rules in multiple areas. I will propose specifics but ultimately it's your class and I'm willing to make the rules what that majority of you guys want within reason and within the NORRA framework (I do not want to add a class for example). So I propose:

a) must use stock parts. ok to reinforce the stock parts but base parts must be stock. this includes parts like radius arms, brakes, steering, everything except safety items like fuel cells, seats and harnesses. And yes I know stronger aftermarket parts, big brakes, floater rear ends and the like can be thought of as improving safety, but they also enable you to go faster and harder before breaking stuff and are generally very expensive. So I like the idea of stock. And everyone has the same stock stuff and you have to drive within it's limits to get to the finish. Tie rods bending? reinforce them. Want trick aftermarket arms? Go to Legend.

b) Shocks, allow aftermarket but restrict to stock mounting locations and limit to the number of shocks the vehicle had when it was raced prior to 1976 (with documentation) or as delivered from the factory for new builds. Reservoirs ok.

c) front and rear ends. Stock dimension housings, rear semi-floaters. Ok to build aftermarket but limit tube diameter to stock. ok to truss, seam weld in the tubes or add reinforcement but no big dollar floater housings. stock width wms to wms. No wheel spacers. Any wheel offset or diameter, but tires limited to 35" (which is way bigger than they ran back in the day but the ruts are also way deeper today due to modern racecars on the track). aftermarket semi-floater axles ok, this is self limiting as you can only go so big inside a stock diameter housing.

d) stock architecture engines, carbs only. no fuel injection, no LS power. For Fords this would be Windsor based. I'm in favor of allowing any size even stroked 351. In my opinion there is no advantage to having a mega engine with stock parts and leafs without links. Good luck finishing with more power than you can make with a 302. also for guys who already have a 351 stroker, they don't have to start all over with a 302 based engine. if they have EFI, they can switch to a carb for much less than a whole new engine. for transmissions, I'm in favor of no electronic control. So if you want overdrive, do it with an AOD like they did back in the day. but I would not ban C6. And realistically you can't fit an E4OD in an EB and have any rear travel left anyway due to impossibly short drive shafts. engine must be in stock mounting location. cooling open, allow rear radiators with electric fans?

Allow power streering but using stock parts? canned ham pumps or remote steering resi?

Allow conversion to disks? in front only? or in rear too? If so, allow Chevy on Ford? Allow aftermarket (can get spendy) or OEM parts only?

Next steps. Listen to your feedback, then draft up bullet point rule changes and email them to anyone who has raced Pioneer in last 3 years for comment. Implement what the majority of the feedback indicates.

Lastly, these changes are fairly minor for most of the cars ive seen in the class. Plan would be to implement starting with 2020 Mexican 1000. The 2019 Mexican 500 would run under the existing rules and any car that ran Pioneer at the 19 1k would be legal in the 19 500.

 

[markw]

Chris this is great! Excellent thoughts all around. I do think brakes are a significant safety issue so 4 discs seem appropriate. Most conversions use Chevy parts in front but Explorer brakes are a popular conversion for the rear. Most would likely use a C4 anyhow. I do think at least dual shocks in front should be allowed. No expensive coolers, etc. Like the idea of semifloat rear. Keeps cost down for sure. We may be on to something here! Mark