Racer Project

[68ford]

Todd, you might know this, or if anyone else does please reply. The first lift I had on my truck was an oldschool K-S 2 1/2", I was able to jump my truck pretty well with good landing results but it was a bitch on the supermarket parking lot speedbumps. I later went with the JD coils and found that jumping was a serious no-no. Obviously the coils weren't able to handle the compression as well as the stiffer units. In my train of thought the coil is supposed to take the majority of compression and the shock is intended to handle the majority of rebound. Is this wrong? If not, who makes a good spring to handle the compression of serious racing applications like the SCORE series?

for the most part, the spring holds the truck up, barely. the compression valving in the shock keeps it from bottoming, its totaly opposite of what you think, but you cant do this without long springs on a coilover. the spring rate doesnt change nearly as much on coilovers. so with the soft springs you run alot less rebound valving because you there isnt much forcing the axle back down, some run more compression valving to keep fom bottoming, or you can run hydrolic bumpstops with give you very progressive last 4in(in my case), i think if you have 200psi initial in them they are at 1000psi fully compressed.
i just went from .012 to .010 thickness of rebound shims(less dampning) and now my axle drops faster in bumps and even before i hit stuff that i rarely use all the bumpstop,before i used it all all the time and it rides alot better now.rebound valving is one of those things you allways want enough,but to much is just that to much. especially with the solid axle, you dont want your rig to bounce but you want the axle to move as fast as it can, i think i might try .008 shims. and compression is .015 for comparrison,rear is .015 compresion and .012 rebound,soon to be .012compresion and .010 rebound.

 

[68ford]

Hi Todd, I run my off the shelf 4.5" coils and the national EB leafs the last 2 years.
Right now I have a set of Devers leafs that are about 12" longer than stock on the rear. I posted some pics on OHR of the new shackles. I rised the spring mounts about 5" and lowered the racer about 3" so I guess I will change the front coils to get level or up a little in the front. My new arms will be tested this year. The triple pass Kings work great. From the first year to the 2ed year the racer lost about 900 lbs and that made it a lot more fun to drive. I think my bottom line is keep it light, KIS and double check every bolt. The little problems we had were easy to find and easy to fix.

chuck,what springs are you running? are they one offs from deaver or something that would usually be for something different? did you move the front mount forward and rear more back? im thinking of doing this.

 

[west texas kid]

i agree with carl on the safety thing, but one thing i dont agree on is that i can guarantee you will never spend as much on a cage as you will your suspension setup. you have what looks like a decent design, just remember the triangulation thing. if you would like a critique on all that let me know, i have a buddy who is a good fabricator (actuallly building an 8 truck now) and i can get him to give ya some advice if needed. just remember when you think you have enough, add more tube.

im really interested in seein this build, if it turns out like other broncos ive seen for the dez its goin to be SIC

wes

 

[coachbarnes]

coachbarns, you typed "tube frame", did you mean the cage? I think the rules of score require stock frame.
Also I talked to Mr. Savage, the head SCORE tech guy about FI on the EB in class 3. I ask him 4 times diff ways in the call just to be sure that he did understand that I was talking about the EB that never came with FI. His reply everytime was "As long as it is stock ford FI it is O.K." If you are thinking about going this way give him a call and ask again to be safe.
I was O.K. with the carb last year but I think the FI would get beter mileage, if I could go from 6 to 8 MPG I could maybe pass a few pits.
I think I told you before but to be sure, If you run parts that are interchangeable with what I run and you run with OHR you could cut down on the spare parts cost. We pool the spare parts and spares. I run the 351w and it has more power than I can use, I will be running a C-6 this year and will bring a spare. Why are you planning to run ram ass.? How will you bypass it if it fails? I believe in the KISS idea also.

Howdy Chuck -- I mistyped on the "tube frame" - I certainly meant cage. On the FI, I plan on calling them today about a question on wheelbase, so I'll ask. Even if they allow it, I really don't think I would do it -- only because of my ability (or inability) to fix a problem in the middle of the desert. If it's carbed, I can probably hack my way through a quick fix - but FI...I'm lost. That's just the truth of the matter. So in the spirit of KISS, I'll stick with a carb (at least for our first 500).

You did mention to me that keeping things similar would be beneficial to all, and I definitely want to do that where I can. Heck - you inspired this Endeavor in the first place, so I definitely want to play as a team. (But I am pissed that you already took the best EB paint job ever done! ;D ) Remember -- my first race will be the 500, so I'll probably be on my own from an EB standpoint, and will need to be self-sufficient for that one. I had it in my mind that you were giving up the clutch for a C4 though?? Are you going with an Atlas or NP205 behind the C6? I'm most certain I'll have a 351w block, but trying to withstand the temptation to overpower the little truck. On the hyd assist steering -- well, the reason is to try and help with the fatigue factor. It's a simple setup(the one I'm considering is from PSC), and if it fails I would just cap the lines from the PS gearbox, and run with straight PS. I guess my question would be, "why not"?

 

[chuck]

Chuck-what a coincidence, I was just over surfing the OHR site for the first time in quite a few months.......do you have a link to the shackle pics? I couldn't find them. I assume the leafs you have on now were the ones you showed me at the shop in April? Congrats on lowering the truck - that's a good thing!

Todd Z.

http://oldhorseracing.com/cgi/BRF/showthread.php?t=121&page=2&pp=10
That should get you there. If that doesn't work it's post 16 in BCB racer 05
The same leafs that you saw.

 

[chuck]

chuck,what springs are you running? are they one offs from deaver or something that would usually be for something different? did you move the front mount forward and rear more back? im thinking of doing this.

The leafs are something he had that he modified to work right for me. He may need to modify them more, depends on how they work out when we get it going.
I did move the front foreward and up and the shackle end back and up. The wheelbase will now be 94", the SCORE limit. I would not have bothered to move it back the 2" just for the 2" but I was changing everything anyway.

 

[toddz69]

http://oldhorseracing.com/cgi/BRF/showthread.php?t=121&page=2&pp=10
That should get you there. If that doesn't work it's post 16 in BCB racer 05
The same leafs that you saw.

I'm having a rough day! Still couldn't find it. For some reason, it says I don't have the privileges to view and then when I go to the forum, I don't see anything like BCB racer 05..........???

Todd Z.

 

[coachbarnes]

I'm having a rough day! Still couldn't find it. For some reason, it says I don't have the privileges to view and then when I go to the forum, I don't see anything like BCB racer 05..........???

Todd Z.

We must both be havin' the same kind of day, because exact same thing happens with me.

 

[chuck]

Howdy Chuck -- I mistyped on the "tube frame" - I certainly meant cage. On the FI, I plan on calling them today about a question on wheelbase, so I'll ask. Even if they allow it, I really don't think I would do it -- only because of my ability (or inability) to fix a problem in the middle of the desert. If it's carbed, I can probably hack my way through a quick fix - but FI...I'm lost. That's just the truth of the matter. So in the spirit of KISS, I'll stick with a carb (at least for our first 500).

You did mention to me that keeping things similar would be beneficial to all, and I definitely want to do that where I can. Heck - you inspired this Endeavor in the first place, so I definitely want to play as a team. (But I am pissed that you already took the best EB paint job ever done! ;D ) Remember -- my first race will be the 500, so I'll probably be on my own from an EB standpoint, and will need to be self-sufficient for that one. I had it in my mind that you were giving up the clutch for a C4 though?? Are you going with an Atlas or NP205 behind the C6? I'm most certain I'll have a 351w block, but trying to withstand the temptation to overpower the little truck. On the hyd assist steering -- well, the reason is to try and help with the fatigue factor. It's a simple setup(the one I'm considering is from PSC), and if it fails I would just cap the lines from the PS gearbox, and run with straight PS. I guess my question would be, "why not"?

I may not run FI either for the same reasons but I would like to get better mileage. Let me know what SCORE tells you about the FI.
I am O.K. with you using a flag paint scheme, in fack I think it would be cool.
If we don't destroy the racer in the 1000 this yearwe will be running the 500 also, you can't have too much fun you know.Also even if we don't run some of us may be able to come give you a hand. Keep me up to date on how it is going so I can plan on it.
I don't trust autos but they say the C-6 is bullet proof so I am going to try one but I am bringing a spare also. The D-20 with my 300M output shaft should hold up fine, It has for the last 2 years with the manual.
My take on power, you can't have too much if you can control it, I can't seem to get the hang of that control thing. The more power you get out of a engine the less reliable it becomes. We decided against stroking the 351 last year and settled for 450 hp. I think we would have been as well off with 400 because we could spin the rear wheels at any speed. This year may be better because I am told the C-6 will use 30 hp and I plan to try running it in 4x4, that way some of the power will be on the front wheels
I have a ram ass. here that I planned to run on the racer but changed my mind. No one complained about arm fatique and without it there is one less thing to break. A couple of caps and a little fluid should get you going if it fails.

 

[coachbarnes]

I may not run FI either for the same reasons but I would like to get better mileage. Let me know what SCORE tells you about the FI.
I am O.K. with you using a flag paint scheme, in fack I think it would be cool.
If we don't destroy the racer in the 1000 this yearwe will be running the 500 also, you can't have too much fun you know.Also even if we don't run some of us may be able to come give you a hand. Keep me up to date on how it is going so I can plan on it.
I don't trust autos but they say the C-6 is bullet proof so I am going to try one but I am bringing a spare also. The D-20 with my 300M output shaft should hold up fine, It has for the last 2 years with the manual.
My take on power, you can't have too much if you can control it, I can't seem to get the hang of that control thing. The more power you get out of a engine the less reliable it becomes. We decided against stroking the 351 last year and settled for 450 hp. I think we would have been as well off with 400 because we could spin the rear wheels at any speed. This year may be better because I am told the C-6 will use 30 hp and I plan to try running it in 4x4, that way some of the power will be on the front wheels
I have a ram ass. here that I planned to run on the racer but changed my mind. No one complained about arm fatique and without it there is one less thing to break. A couple of caps and a little fluid should get you going if it fails.

I'll post as soon as I speak to them. It would be nice if FI were at least an "option". On the paint, we had drawn up a Texas Flag thing, but it kept looking too much like yours and I didn't like infringin' on you. We're also tossin' around incorporating the Mexican Flag colors -- we do a lot of business in the Rio Grande Valley (the "other" border), and plan to use the truck as a marketing tool (at least that's what we tell the accountants;D ) -- we think our customers would appreciate showing them a little courtesy with our paint job. Hadn't considered the C6 with the D20 -- shame on me. Just assumed I'd use the 205 or Atlas. I was givin a higher number (HP) consumption by the C6, but even 30 seems big to me. We're thinkin' about a 475-500hp stoked build. Sounds huge, but I'm definitely old school on that - more is always better! And if I flip, I want to be haulin' arrs when I do it! ;D What PS box are you running? I'll definitely be pingin' you as we go thru this adventure, and I'll be at the 1000 this year to cheer you on!! Count on that!

 

[chuck]

I'm having a rough day! Still couldn't find it. For some reason, it says I don't have the privileges to view and then when I go to the forum, I don't see anything like BCB racer 05..........???

Todd Z.

Computors I don't understand. I can click on the link above and it takes me right to the page.
Todd, I know you can get to the forum and at the bottom of the front page is "builders discussion board" and just below that is BCB racer 05 If that doesn't work I will call Tazz

 

[coachbarnes]

Computors I don't understand. I can click on the link above and it takes me right to the page.
Todd, I know you can get to the forum and at the bottom of the front page is "builders discussion board" and just below that is BCB racer 05 If that doesn't work I will call Tazz

Chuck -- it's a permissions issue -- Tazz will need to grant access for others to view. That's why you can and we can't. I'm convinced these computers and the Internet are just a fad anyway! ;D ;D

 

[chuck]

I'll post as soon as I speak to them. It would be nice if FI were at least an "option". On the paint, we had drawn up a Texas Flag thing, but it kept looking too much like yours and I didn't like infringin' on you. We're also tossin' around incorporating the Mexican Flag colors -- we do a lot of business in the Rio Grande Valley (the "other" border), and plan to use the truck as a marketing tool (at least that's what we tell the accountants;D ) -- we think our customers would appreciate showing them a little courtesy with our paint job. Hadn't considered the C6 with the D20 -- shame on me. Just assumed I'd use the 205 or Atlas. I was givin a higher number (HP) consumption by the C6, but even 30 seems big to me. We're thinkin' about a 475-500hp stoked build. Sounds huge, but I'm definitely old school on that - more is always better! And if I flip, I want to be haulin' arrs when I do it! ;D What PS box are you running? I'll definitely be pingin' you as we go thru this adventure, and I'll be at the 1000 this year to cheer you on!! Count on that!

I am running the f-150 4x4 box with a cryo'd sector shaft.

 

[coachbarnes]

I am running the f-150 4x4 box with a cryo'd sector shaft.

Thought so -- Thanks -- last question of the day -- I didn't see on your site where you sell a C6-D20 adapter, so I'm assuming you're getting the adapter somewhere else and using your 300M shaft. Can you throw me a bone on that one..what are you using for an adapter?

 

[chuck]

Chuck -- it's a permissions issue -- Tazz will need to grant access for others to view. That's why you can and we can't. I'm convinced these computers and the Internet are just a fad anyway! ;D ;D

I think Todd has access and you have posted on the forum also so thought you could see it also. Anyway here is a couple of pictures

 

[chuck]

Thought so -- Thanks -- last question of the day -- I didn't see on your site where you sell a C6-D20 adapter, so I'm assuming you're getting the adapter somewhere else and using your 300M shaft. Can you throw me a bone on that one..what are you using for an adapter?

I am a advanced adapter dealer and am running their adapter

 

[toddz69]

I think Todd has access and you have posted on the forum also so thought you could see it also. Anyway here is a couple of pictures

Thanks Chuck! When I look at the OHR forum page, I see 4 headings: Bronco Racer, Racers Being Built, Miscellaneous, and Race Info. And then there are a bunch of threads below each of the headings. The new posts I see are the ones Jack posted a few days ago about race planning, etc. and a few others..... I must be missing something on the photos.

Thanks again for posting those! Those are exactly the type of shackles I was hoping you'd be running. I still think something like that for those of us with the stock leafs and stock shackles would sell as well (I know you and I have had some discussions on those before). I've approached a few other race-related fab shops about making them for Broncos and they all politely demurred due to the low quantities involved.

Todd Z.

 

[NicksTrix]

todd, send me a print of what you want, i'm not scared to build them ;D

we could do a short production run of them. quick jig and there's nothing to it.
nick

 

[broncow72]

I was givin a higher number (HP) consumption by the C6, but even 30 seems big to me. We're thinkin' about a 475-500hp stoked build.

Scott, I tried to confirm my numbers I gave you but couldn't find a solid source to recite. My info was given to me by a friend with vast experience in the hot rod and off-road building. The C-6 has the same weaknesses as the C-4. The planetary set needs to be upgraded to a 6 gear set. The clutch basket needs to be machined to pack more clutches in it, that with a worked manual valvebody and some trick servos will make it gooder. Or you could go to an AOD and drop your ring gear a bit more. I'm sure the C-6's heavier case and other internals would be more reliable but I would find a good tranny builder and ask their opinions. I know of 2, Art Carr and Hughes performance. I know there are others, those are just the ones I can think of off the top.

 

[coachbarnes]

I am a advanced adapter dealer and am running their adapter

OK -- Thanks -- Here's another question, although I promised I wouldn't have anymore today --

With the C6 and the AA coupler to a D20, it looks like there is a 3.5" add in length over stock(C4/D20). Using the C6/NP205, only a 1" addition. Since the limiting factor on droop "should" be the CV bind (from your "extended radius arm" discussion, which I completely understand), doesn't this additional 3.5" additional length cause an increase in rear driveline angle, therefore reducing your droop? or is it negligable?