rebuilt 302 not firing all cylinders HELP!!!

[jeremyhixson]

started with an all original ’72, 302 3 speed with worn cylinders and blown head gaskets. will rebuild in the future but a hillbilly friend had this sitting under his deck… a 1989 non-HO 302, rebuilt and dropped in. I removed the efi, using the ’89 block, heads, pistons, cam, crank, etc… from the ’72 I used the water pump, timing, flywheel, balancer, alt, power steering, stock intake and 2bbl carb. timing was/is set and fires just as if not quicker and easier than originally. PRoblem is I’m only firing on 4 cylinders. I’ve done every firing order know to ford and it only gets worse with the changes. I’ve settled on the fact that the
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 is the only firing order thats close. I’ve changed pertronix ignitor II back to points and condenser with 0 changes, fresh rebuilt Holley 2bbl to Motorcraft 2150 with 0 change, new dist cap no change, new wires, no change, plugged the exhaust ports in the rear of the heads after many phone calls… much quieter but no change with the firing. its missing bad and sounds bad. I primed the motor and had oil at all rods and all lifters working before dropping in. The valves cannot be adjusted and were working when primed. Does anyone think it’s possible the distributer is /could be bad and causing certain cylinders to not fire? I’ve eliminate everything I can think of but that. It’s an older distributor out of my ’64 Mustang 289. I’ve pulled wires and I’m getting spark to the cylinders but no fire. I even pulled the pertronix ignitor II and put a new set of points and condenser back in and again, fires immediately but won’t run all cylinders. I’m going on 1 week of this and I thought I’d bow out and pray for help…. It’s my dd and 3rd child so i’m not worried about a toy or sunshine only driver. Myself and every other Ford lover in SW Pa. are baffled and hope someone can throw an idea or solution my way. Thanks in advance…

 

[Rustytruck]

I dont know your knowledge so dont think I am didding you.
Put the timing on top dead center. Front piston on Passengers side. Remove passengers side valve cover and check front 2 valves. both valves must be all the way up. Now check the firing order shoud be
Windsor (289, 302, 5.0, 5.0HO, 351) Firing Orders Have you ever needed to know what the cylinder firing order on your windsor motor is? Fear not, as we have the cylinder numberings for pretty much all windsor combinations out there!


289 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302 (Pre-82) 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 HO 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
5.0 Truck 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
351 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8


Cylinder numbering The table below covers the positions and numbering for all cylinders on a windsor motor. Generally, it can be summarised as follows: When looking into the engine bay the number one cylinder should be on your left hand side (left bank) at the front of the engine. The number eight cylinder is on the rear right (right bank) up against the firewall.

Firewall
4 8
3 7
2 6
1 5
Front bumper

check these pictures for reference.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ford+5.0+firing+order&qpvt=ford+5.0+firing+order&FORM=IGRE

 

[73azbronco]

What is cold compression on all cylinders.

 

[Ourobos]

Well, the 89 short block is 50oz imbalance, and you put a 28oz damper and flywheel / flexplate..

Second, if you used the 89 camshaft if it's HO (Mustang), it will be 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

 

[jeremyhixson]

firing order

Thanks for the quick response. Yeah, I built the truck over two years without getting into the engine other than, oil, plugs, wires, hoses, belts…. and it ran fine for 8-9 months as my DD. I’m semi-retired and had an opportunity to buy a garage to restore and build antique/rods customs back where I grew up south of Pittsburgh. My wife took the kids in her truck, I had the Mustang shipped and decided to drive the ’72 Bronco. She (My Bronco) must not have wanted to leave New England because things went bad really quick. Of the 700 miles I made it maybe 400-425 (with the 100 mile AAA tow!) She died in Connecticut in the middle of a blizzard, the guy hauling my Mustang was a day behind me so I got a room and he stopped the next day. Pulled the dizzy off the Mustang and bought a new battery before we finally got it going again. Ran better, but not as good as she normally had. Made it to Scranton PA that night, didn’t shut off for fuel, food etc. in fear it wouldn’t start again. Got to a hotel in Scranton and thats the last time she started. It was the perfect storm, timing, elec issues, ignition… Got a tow 100 miles south and was met by friends and a trailer, painfully enough driving a chevy… Got to new home in the new garage and pulled heads, gaskets, bore wear piston rock, on and on. The guy I’m working with is an ASE certified (quit a Chebby dealership to join me) so he’s familiar with anything I’m not. The others involved so far are nothing but old Ford builders and swear by the oval. The timing was set before the heads were put back on and we’ve tried every firing order we could find. tried swapping the 5-4/3-7 hoping it was a newer order but rough start and worse if any idle. 351/302 HO, 289/302, switched the wires 180 just in case we were on the exhaust stroke and nothing. It fires immediately, half a crank but it’s not hitting all cylinders. The exhaust sounds like a boxer hitting a speed bag, even at low idle. Not the low growl I immediately fell in love with (Hedman Hedders into glass packs dumped in front of rear tires). Every variable has been removed or replaced except for the dist., that came from the ’64 289. Is there any reason or way that my stock 2bbl intake would not allow fuel to flow to certain pistons in the newer heads and/or block? Even those familiar with both motors aren’t sure about the mash of old and new that I’ve created. I have not checked the compression but I will right now and get back to you in a few minutes. Like I said before, I get spark with wire pulled and cranking in dead cylinders… While at idle I removed one wire at a time and no changes on the dead cylinders, pull one thats firing and it’s noticeable. I’m going to run out and check compression on all. Any idea where I should be about? The original 302 had 20-30 psi in 1-5-8 before I decided to pull it, leave on a stand in the corner and wait for a rainy day to do it right.
Thanks again guys…

 

[jeremyhixson]

What is cold compression on all cylinders.

Checked all cylinders, hadn’t done yet in fear of the worst but…
4-150 8-160
3-160 7-155
2-155 6-150
1-150 5-150


I did read, too late… That the original balancer was 28oz and the one I tossed was 50oz. I couldn’t use the new one, 3 holes-4 holes…
couldn’t use the flywheel (felt thin and cheap compared to the mass I pulled off the '72), auto new/ mine standard…
Would that alone be enough to cause this problem? I’ve asked around here and no one seems to think so, but I’d love to hear otherwise and find a solution in that case. Any definite problem or cause would be welcome and then I’ll work on the solution, I’m running out of beer and ideas…

 

[broncnaz]

Well Id probably double check that you have the 89 firing order. Next pull all your plugs and set/make sure the gap is at the old points ignition gap of .034 since your running points as maybe the gap for the newer engine/ignition is to large and is part of your non spark issue.
If that doesnt help Id pull the Dist. and check the drive gear closely if the 89 engine has a roller cam you may be chewing up the old points dist cast iron drive gear. With roller cam engines you need to swap in a steel drive gear if running a dist other than the 89 or aftermarket that has a steel gear.
Also double check the points they dont make them like they used to and make sure the advance is working correctly.

Compression readings on a rebuilt engine should be fairly high like around 150 psi

As was said earlier your flywheel and balancer are wrong for that 89 engine unless you had them rebalanced. But for the most part they will usually only cause a vibration issue and possibly increased rod and main bearing wear.
There is no problem using the older intake on newer engines. although sometimes you need to use the intake gaskets for the year of the heads as water leaks are possible with the wrong gaskets.

 

[Phil76]

Here's the balancer I bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Profess...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cdb7c1dda&vxp=mtr It has holes for either 3 or 4 bolt. I did the same with mine. Utilized 74 pulleys, etc. on a 1980-up block with 50 oz crank.

 

[Ourobos]

I had my balancer rebalanced and totally rebuilt by damper dudes, $125.

 

[Bronco Paul]

You need to eliminate spark as a problem. Pull out one spark plug at a time with the wire connected and turn the engine over and check them...if you have spark then you can start looking at a possible valve problem. I have an '89 HO in my Mustang, did a bottom end rebuild and didn't touch the heads. The heads had really weak valve springs that wouldn't handle the cam I was running and it ran like crap...felt like it wasn't firing on all cylinders.

 

[mcknight77]

It's a tedious process, but pull the valve covers. Start with the No. 1 cylinder and make sure the valves are closed and confirm that the distributor rotor is pointing at the No. 1 terminal/plug wire. Repeat for all cylinders to ensure that at valves closed that the distributor rotor is pointing at the right terminal for that cylinder. That will confirm the firing order.

If you find one that is not pointing at the right terminal, change the wire to the terminal it's pointing to. Make sure you are checking at valves closed(both valves seated and not moving when you turn the dampener), not on valve overlap (both valves moving, one up, and one down).

 

[smokinjoe]

I had my balancer rebalanced and totally rebuilt by damper dudes, $125.

AHA! You're on it ;D I did a T5 swap in my Mustang and had the imbalance problem b/c the T5 pressure plate had a different bolt patter and used metric bolts but I still had the 70 block (dampner, crank & billet flywheel).

I just ended up having the flywheel drilled and tapped to accept the 5.0 pressure plate v. getting one of those adjustable weight flywheels.

As for the non-firing: you've tried all the different firing orders and you have spark at each cylinder but no fire?

Gotta be the valves, right? Maybe hanging open or like Bronco Paul said, maybe a few of your old springs can't handle the cam you put in?

 

[smokinjoe]

I just thought of something additional, which pushrods did you use? You didn't mix and match em' did you (ie: use some 72 rods and some 89 rods)? With the 89 block and heads you'd need the 89 pushrods.

Just trying to brainstorm w/ ya.

 

[garberz]

.........Gotta be the valves, right? Maybe hanging open or like Bronco Paul said, maybe a few of your old springs can't handle the cam you put in?

He's has good compression in all cylinders. I'd keep looking at the distributor.

 

[Rustytruck]

Change the capisiter on the points set. things get goofy when they fail.

 

[jhorton]

where do you live , sounds like you are close to me and I may be able to help. John

 

[WheelHorse]

It's a tedious process, but pull the valve covers. Start with the No. 1 cylinder and make sure the valves are closed and confirm that the distributor rotor is pointing at the No. 1 terminal/plug wire. Repeat for all cylinders to ensure that at valves closed that the distributor rotor is pointing at the right terminal for that cylinder. That will confirm the firing order.

If you find one that is not pointing at the right terminal, change the wire to the terminal it's pointing to. Make sure you are checking at valves closed(both valves seated and not moving when you turn the dampener), not on valve overlap (both valves moving, one up, and one down).

This times ten.

Also, I had a few GM guys call me after wiring Fords looking for help. This was touched in a previous post regarding Ford's cylinder numbering vs. GM's odd and even.

GM's spin clockwise for dizzy, Ford's are CC at least where we're concerned.

Also, switch out the HB and flywheel to the proper balance. Your fillings will thank you. I've run across this several times on older swaps, even a newer 5L. Rev the car up and she vibrates like a driveshaft out of balance, yet the vehicle was stationary.


I've also had a 351 come in running on 4cyls in the past, turns out, after doing what mck recommended, I found out someone installed a different cam with 302 order. Never assume displacement dictates the firing order, someone may have swapped cams. Only way to know for sure is to turn the engine over without the valve covers on it.

 

[DirtDonk]

I have a question Jeremy. It looks like you've already verified that you have spark at all 8 cylinders. Correct?
What makes you think that 4 cylinders are not firing? Is it something specific you're seeing/hearing (like the comment on the exhaust?) or is it the vibration?
Reason I mention it is that, no matter what else you do, you are going to have to deal with the imbalance and replace/modify your flywheel and damper before you run the engine much more.
I wouldn't try to diagnose other issues until you've done that.

Paul

 

[Fairlane514]

Something else to try……while its running use your timing light to verify that the plug wires are active. Use the "clamp" on the timing light and move it to each wire and see if the light, lights up.

 

[DirtDonk]

What he said. Easiest way by far.
Won't always guarantee a good clean spark at the plug tip (if something is wrong with the plug itself for instance) but it's a good bet you're at least getting some sparkage if the strobe lights up.

Paul