The starter relay needs to stay in the system. It has kind of been mentioned in earlier replies, but I’m going to add my 2 cents. The ignition switch wiring is made up of smaller gauge wires. It can only carry the load of making the connection in the relay. Once the relay is activated, the larger gauge wiring(battery cables) can handle the amperage (load) from the battery to the hot post on the relay and from the switched side of the relay to the starter. If you eliminate the starter relay, all of the amperage that the starter requires, has to travel thru the ignition switch and then to the starter. The lighter gauge will not tolerate that amount of amperage that the starter requires and will fail. Failing could mean ruining the starter, melting the smaller wires and possibly causing an electrical fire. My suggestion, is if you don’t like looking at that starter relay on the inner fender, you can move the relay to a less visible location and lengthen/shorten battery cables and ignition wires.
Community
Buy / Sell
Bronco Tech
3 Arm Wiper Setup
Fix Motor Mount
Roll Cage Braces
Throttle Body 65mm
Wheel Alignment
Heat Riser Replacement
Vent Window Repair
Center Console Mount
Straighten Bumper
Ford 6R80 6 spd
More Tech...
Fix Motor Mount
Roll Cage Braces
Throttle Body 65mm
Wheel Alignment
Heat Riser Replacement
Vent Window Repair
Center Console Mount
Straighten Bumper
Ford 6R80 6 spd
More Tech...
-
Welcome to ClassicBroncos! - You are currently viewing the forums as a GUEST. To take advantage of all the site features, please take a moment to register. It's fast, simple and absolutely free. So please join our community today!If you have problems registering or can't log into your account, please contact Admin.
Solenoid delete
- Thread starter beaux312
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 49,462
There is a higher load on the ignition switch when you ditch the relay, but it never sees the whole current for the starter. Probably could not handle even one start under those conditions!
It sees only the load of the solenoid, which is greater than the relay, but the solenoid still handles the large current of the starter motor.
So the switch is safe from instant meltdown, but they do seem to fail much sooner than normal when used to energize the solenoid than they do when just called upon to energize the relay.
Paul
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 49,462
Because you can. And plenty have tried.
But that does not always make it a good idea. Or a good fit for everyone.
I'd guess that for every 10 people here that have tried it that way, 8 or 9 of them have put the fender mounted relay back in place. While it certainly cleans up the wiring to some people's tastes, the issues that might arise are enough to negate the aesthetics for some of us.
Starter run-on and potentially shortening the life of the ignition switch are the two main reasons most go back to the relay, or leave it in the first place. As mentioned, even Ford continued to use the fender relay after the introduction of the PMGR starters in the '90's. And may very well to this day, but I have not looked under the hood of a newer Ford for several years now, so can't say that from experience.
I don't know of any tests done by Bronco owners to check amperage use through the ignition switch, to see how much, or if there even is a difference between the two types. Probably some ratings and reports available on the internet.
Perhaps the premature switch failures were due to the switches themselves, rather than the act of changing to a solenoid equipped starter.
But the starter run-on due to the new wiring orientation was pretty much not open to argument. Well, it probably should be, because not everyone experienced run-on. Just "most" did, so went back to the Ford relay.
Maybe we can re-visit and discuss that sometime as well.
Paul
But that does not always make it a good idea. Or a good fit for everyone.
I'd guess that for every 10 people here that have tried it that way, 8 or 9 of them have put the fender mounted relay back in place. While it certainly cleans up the wiring to some people's tastes, the issues that might arise are enough to negate the aesthetics for some of us.
Starter run-on and potentially shortening the life of the ignition switch are the two main reasons most go back to the relay, or leave it in the first place. As mentioned, even Ford continued to use the fender relay after the introduction of the PMGR starters in the '90's. And may very well to this day, but I have not looked under the hood of a newer Ford for several years now, so can't say that from experience.
I don't know of any tests done by Bronco owners to check amperage use through the ignition switch, to see how much, or if there even is a difference between the two types. Probably some ratings and reports available on the internet.
Perhaps the premature switch failures were due to the switches themselves, rather than the act of changing to a solenoid equipped starter.
But the starter run-on due to the new wiring orientation was pretty much not open to argument. Well, it probably should be, because not everyone experienced run-on. Just "most" did, so went back to the Ford relay.
Maybe we can re-visit and discuss that sometime as well.
Paul
chrlsful
Bronco Guru
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,434
OK, yeah, I have absolutely no automotive ele. theory (& just hack experience) so appreciate the more scholarly/pro/experienced input ! Trouble is I listen to some I should NOT listen to.
Real answer? Geta simple hiskol auto shop text'n read up !
Know of any? Gota name, author or title?
Real answer? Geta simple hiskol auto shop text'n read up !
Know of any? Gota name, author or title?
T-7ToNewOldB
Full Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2018
- Messages
- 315
Paul,
If the amperage to the solenoid relay on the starter is too high you can always add a second relay somewhere else in the engine bay, maybe by the battery.
Hugh
If the amperage to the solenoid relay on the starter is too high you can always add a second relay somewhere else in the engine bay, maybe by the battery.
Hugh
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2012
- Messages
- 3,623
Wanted to clean up the engine bay and keep the solenoid. Fortunately I'm using a ruff stuff battery tray. I moved it over an inch and put the solenoid next to it. It also helps hamper the easy hot-wiring of Fords. Which brings me to a side question. I run the negative from the battery to the engine block, but is there another wire from the engine block to the frame? And where do I ground the body? Thanks
Attachments
chrlsful
Bronco Guru
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,434
4~
dash to frame
engine to fire wall (they can B seen using the same bolt frm opposite sides of the cowl/fire wall)
engine to frame (the neg battery cable)
body to frame
Many components are grounded by being bolted dwn or having a ring terminal.
Here's a good "kit":
https://www.chasebays.com/products/...GtpRsYoHyNVbryQp1vAFDN_OHvjLl3q8aAvQREALw_wcB
painless hasa cheeper 1 Best? one U do up frm any prts store...
(see post #29 as I'm a rookey w/auto electrics)
dash to frame
engine to fire wall (they can B seen using the same bolt frm opposite sides of the cowl/fire wall)
engine to frame (the neg battery cable)
body to frame
Many components are grounded by being bolted dwn or having a ring terminal.
Here's a good "kit":
https://www.chasebays.com/products/...GtpRsYoHyNVbryQp1vAFDN_OHvjLl3q8aAvQREALw_wcB
painless hasa cheeper 1 Best? one U do up frm any prts store...
(see post #29 as I'm a rookey w/auto electrics)
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 49,462
From the factory Ford had an additional ground from the battery to the inner wheel well surface. The part facing the exhaust manifolds.
In our case it was simply tapped into the main cable to the engine so that one cable did double duty. On the full size and many automobiles there was often a second smaller wire (like a 10ga or so) run from the battery negative down to the fender, or fender skirt nearby. Some of us add them and just use one of the starter relay attaching bolts.
Ford never had a ground from the engine to the frame or body on Broncos, even though they did at least some of that for most other vehicles. Just one more indication that Broncos were not thought of through the same lens as many other Ford vehicles.
The common spot to add one from the engine to the body is the back of the intake manifold, or to one of the bell housing bolts. If using the intake, just use one of the several auxiliary bolts though, and not one of the manifold-to-head attaching bolts.
When running one from the engine to the frame, a simple jumper between an engine mount bolt on the block to somewhere nearby on the frame is good. Some, like my F350 have handy bolts on the frame nearby. While others, such as most Broncos, you might have to use a self-tapper to attach to the frame somewhere.
The frame does not need much current, as not many accessory loads use the frame as a ground path. But it does not hurt to add one, and this seems like it would keep any radio noise to a minimum. And it also lets you add accessory grounds to the frame with good results.
If your Bronco is either very rusty, or has had new paint added, the dashboard panel often does not get a good connection to metal. So adding an additional grounding wire from the firewall to the dashboard is not a bad idea.
If you add your own screw to the firewall to act as a ground from the engine, you can also use the threads on the backside of that in the cab for your dash ground.
You can either make your own out of some handy extra wire, or buy some of those pre-made braided straps with eyelets at each end at the local parts stores.
Paul
In our case it was simply tapped into the main cable to the engine so that one cable did double duty. On the full size and many automobiles there was often a second smaller wire (like a 10ga or so) run from the battery negative down to the fender, or fender skirt nearby. Some of us add them and just use one of the starter relay attaching bolts.
Ford never had a ground from the engine to the frame or body on Broncos, even though they did at least some of that for most other vehicles. Just one more indication that Broncos were not thought of through the same lens as many other Ford vehicles.
The common spot to add one from the engine to the body is the back of the intake manifold, or to one of the bell housing bolts. If using the intake, just use one of the several auxiliary bolts though, and not one of the manifold-to-head attaching bolts.
When running one from the engine to the frame, a simple jumper between an engine mount bolt on the block to somewhere nearby on the frame is good. Some, like my F350 have handy bolts on the frame nearby. While others, such as most Broncos, you might have to use a self-tapper to attach to the frame somewhere.
The frame does not need much current, as not many accessory loads use the frame as a ground path. But it does not hurt to add one, and this seems like it would keep any radio noise to a minimum. And it also lets you add accessory grounds to the frame with good results.
If your Bronco is either very rusty, or has had new paint added, the dashboard panel often does not get a good connection to metal. So adding an additional grounding wire from the firewall to the dashboard is not a bad idea.
If you add your own screw to the firewall to act as a ground from the engine, you can also use the threads on the backside of that in the cab for your dash ground.
You can either make your own out of some handy extra wire, or buy some of those pre-made braided straps with eyelets at each end at the local parts stores.
Paul
chrlsful
Bronco Guru
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,434
Steve83
Bronco Guru
Now you're just adding more confusion. Those are NOT "names" for anything. One is a PART NUMBER, and the other is a part CATEGORY that the starter relay falls into, under Ford's particular parts-organizing scheme. These are the NAMES of the starting system components:
(click this text)
(click this text)
(click this text)
bronco217
Jr. Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Messages
- 114
relay
I have successfully replaced the solenoid with a heavy duty plastic box type relay for my PMG starter. I got the idea from a project I was building, a J@@p TJ with Bronco drivetrain, which just had a plastic box type relay for the starter function. been working fine for 8 years.
I have successfully replaced the solenoid with a heavy duty plastic box type relay for my PMG starter. I got the idea from a project I was building, a J@@p TJ with Bronco drivetrain, which just had a plastic box type relay for the starter function. been working fine for 8 years.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but looking at this stuff now. I know what y'all are saying about not getting rid of the relay, but it seems to me that the newer mini starters have the relay built in and the jumping of the terminal is options in case you want to retain that original relay.
There might be some benefits to keeping the relay, but none that I would use.
Has anyone called or emailed one of the manufacturers and asked if a relay is integrated? Doesn't it make you wonder why you have to put a jumper?
There might be some benefits to keeping the relay, but none that I would use.
Has anyone called or emailed one of the manufacturers and asked if a relay is integrated? Doesn't it make you wonder why you have to put a jumper?
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 49,462
The integrated component on the mini starters is actually a solenoid. Because not only is it closing the electrical switch contacts, but it is also sliding the gear into engagement.
Mechanical work makes it the definition solenoid.
But that’s part of the problem with deleting the relay. Two problems actually.
One is a solenoid does seem to use more current than a relay so the already weak bronco switch is put under a greater stress.
In theory it shouldn’t be a problem, but ever since mini starters became a thing we’ve seen more and more bronco ignition switches fail quickly under the load.
Especially older ones. Newer ones are a crapshoot anyway, so why take your chances?
The other problem is starter run on. The starter motor becomes a small generator and can power itself for a couple of moments, keeping the switch closed and the starter running.
It’s not a horrible thing, but it’s a bad thing.
The relay completely isolates the two components, keeping the starter from running on.
And maybe wire for continue to use it even with the new starters.
Now, why is this a problem with Ford starters and not millions of GM starters and ignition switches?
I have no idea, but it’s a thing.
Mechanical work makes it the definition solenoid.
But that’s part of the problem with deleting the relay. Two problems actually.
One is a solenoid does seem to use more current than a relay so the already weak bronco switch is put under a greater stress.
In theory it shouldn’t be a problem, but ever since mini starters became a thing we’ve seen more and more bronco ignition switches fail quickly under the load.
Especially older ones. Newer ones are a crapshoot anyway, so why take your chances?
The other problem is starter run on. The starter motor becomes a small generator and can power itself for a couple of moments, keeping the switch closed and the starter running.
It’s not a horrible thing, but it’s a bad thing.
The relay completely isolates the two components, keeping the starter from running on.
And maybe wire for continue to use it even with the new starters.
Now, why is this a problem with Ford starters and not millions of GM starters and ignition switches?
I have no idea, but it’s a thing.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 49,462
Oh, and a fender mounted relay is also a very convenient place to put all your other power leads.
Whereas the hot terminal on the starter itself is probably the worst place to do all that.
It’s hot down by the exhaust, almost guaranteed to collect oil from any leaks up top, and it is not very fun to work with the wires down there compared up high on the fender.
The proverbial win win.
This all should have been covered here already I would think.
Going to have to go back and read it again.
Whereas the hot terminal on the starter itself is probably the worst place to do all that.
It’s hot down by the exhaust, almost guaranteed to collect oil from any leaks up top, and it is not very fun to work with the wires down there compared up high on the fender.
The proverbial win win.
This all should have been covered here already I would think.
Going to have to go back and read it again.
Yeah, I'm thinking about this because I'm going to have new everything and not using a Bronco ignition switch...going Digital Dawg push button start and also would like the engine compartment as neat looking as possible. I'll have to look more into it and even if I did delete the relay, then I'd still need s a spot for all other ACC connections anyway, so I don't know yet, just thinking and curious.
I might not even be able to decide until I buy everything and lay it out to figure out what I want.
Thanks for the help!
I might not even be able to decide until I buy everything and lay it out to figure out what I want.
Thanks for the help!
chrlsful
Bronco Guru
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,434
Thanks Steve, no matter the site or forum - clear, concise & on point.
Sorry ba - you say "relay", none of us are talkin bout that. See Steve83's posts.
I like the idea of keeping it as Paul states. Wanna hide it tho. Too bad I eliminated it as I have the heavy wire in (gm style).
A/the diode might assist on part of the problems Paul mentions. Or may B it's only a solution for keepin "an idiot light" which might not B on an early bronk. (How do you know U lost charging on a 3G? Ie belt flew off, other issue)? The light on the dash. The diode goes on that line. Cheb 'one wire' might not have that.
Sorry ba - you say "relay", none of us are talkin bout that. See Steve83's posts.
I like the idea of keeping it as Paul states. Wanna hide it tho. Too bad I eliminated it as I have the heavy wire in (gm style).
A/the diode might assist on part of the problems Paul mentions. Or may B it's only a solution for keepin "an idiot light" which might not B on an early bronk. (How do you know U lost charging on a 3G? Ie belt flew off, other issue)? The light on the dash. The diode goes on that line. Cheb 'one wire' might not have that.
