Starter Trouble

[dsmelfi]

'73 Bronco, Blueprint 306, AX15..

I took my girl to the spa for a detail and because it's winter in the northeast, had them do the under carriage, Started up fine, took her home where she sat for a couple days, then would not start, just a single click. Battery is good, wiring seems right, I figured some rust had gotten into a connection so I cleaned all those up with a wire brush but still no love, so I replaced the starter with a brand new Power Master performance starter. Fired right up.

Took a couple trips, then the same thing.. one click and nothing. I noticed the the main wire from the battery looked like it could be loose, so I decided I could reach up and do a sneaky tighten without disconnecting the battery.. not my best moment and I knew it, but whatever.. as you can imagine, I accidentally bridged the gap between the battery and the ignition connections.. and it turned over... lucky for me it was in neutral! Anyway, I tried the key and she started right up.

ok?

So I get home and checked the battery wire closer and it was indeed loose, riding the exhaust and melted through.. so cool.. built a new cable, got it in and all good. Took a couple trips, no problem.. I get to the store, grab a few things and when I returned, just a single click... without any real tools and ice cream melting.. I just grabbed a screw driver, put her in neutral, bridged the gap between battery and ignition.. she turned over so I hopped in and started right up.

All the ground connections seem fine (will double check them all on Sunday when I get a minute).. the battery is fine.. my alternator looks like it's not performing as she's running between 11 and 12.5 volts during normal driving so I am going to replace that, likely with a serp install because I know the old v-belt system doesn't really do well with the hi-output alternators... but that wouldn't cause starter issues, right?

I will add that there is no starter solenoid.. just a direct connection from battery to starter.. but it has been fine for the past 5 years..

One question I have is this: can a starter get into a state where it will not turn, then somehow get reset when it gets kicked by basically bridging the gap between batter and ignition?

Otherwise, Can anyone shed some light on what is actually happening? Any ideas are appreciated at this point...

Thanks and happy bucking!

 

[knack]

Maybe the starter solenoid won't fire due to low voltage? Anyway, I'd work on getting the charging system performing better before anything else.

 

[knack]

I meant to say the internal starter solenoid. You say there isn't one, but there is still some sort of a solenoid inside the starter case making the starter gear engage the ring gear on the flywheel.

 

[Brush Hog]

I had a loose and frayed negative battery cable ground wire cause a similar problem. Had a bad starter solenoid cause similar problem too.

 

[dsmelfi]

Thanks for the responses...and I understand knack, just figured the new starter ruled out a bad internal solenoid. I pulled the main ground cables and the one from the block to the frame is bad...will update the thread once those are replaced.

 

[bronco italiano]

Thanks for the responses...and I understand knack, just figured the new starter ruled out a bad internal solenoid. I pulled the main ground cables and the one from the block to the frame is bad...will update the thread once those are replaced.

Good catch on the ground!!!
Many, sudden EB electrical problems are ground related.
My Uncle's pickup suddenly decided to have no starter and it was a 1" section of solenoid wire (Starter mounted solenoid) that was burned insulation/corroded copper wire strands.

 

[EPB72]

Thanks for the responses...and I understand knack, just figured the new starter ruled out a bad internal solenoid. I pulled the main ground cables and the one from the block to the frame is bad...will update the thread once those are replaced.

does your main battery ground cable go from battery to engine block,/ or even a stud head bolt on starter itself,, as well as a body ground straight from battery,if so then a engine to frame ground isn't needed for starter operation..
intermittant starting issues being a 70 bronco or a 2018 whatever ,, testing while the condition is present is key,,, test light , multimeter .. second person to turn key when needed .....how did you test battery? 100 %charged and load tested?,,,

positive battery cable from battery straight to starter? not on OE type starter.. { starter would run constantly}.....or you have PMGR starter? requires two wires hooked up to starter soleniod/piggybacked on starter?
starter relay fender mounted with OE type starter??,, if so then relay needs good ground on fender ,fender to battery as well,,,.. positive side batterycable to relay good connections and no voltage drop, as well as starter cable relay to starter motor, no voltage drop,, .at time of no start and click is time to do voltage drop test test on both sides of starter relay , good voltage from ignition switch to small start post on relay, ......also on charging issue need to address that ... testing befor just throwing and alternator would be a better approch......

 

[Jdgephar]

Might be wearing out the key switch contacts with the higher current since it's direct to the starter's solenoid.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

 

[jckkys]

My '68 Autolite was/is flawless. I did replace it with a '77 Motorcraft that I didn't have to pay for. The secret is OEM either way. I use the hell out of Ebay and save money too.

 

[dsmelfi]

I pulled the ignition switch and it looked like it was in super bad shape, so I replaced it and it seemed to fix the issue.. until yesterday morning when the same thing happened, she didn't fire. I tried a few times and nothing, just one click. I pulled the key out, put her in neutral and decided to try one more time and she fired right up.

I was wondering if the battery could just be on the brink of needing replacement, thinking that taking it out of reverse, gave it just enough power to crank.. I have a couple after market lights hooked up to reverse so I can see where I'm going better at night.

I left it overnight without charging the battery, and left it in reverse this morning and she fired right up.. so I'm not thinking that is the issue.. but totally at a loss.

At this point I have remade and replaced all the main power and ground connections except the alternator cable to battery, but I did get in and clean up the alternator ground.. just the bolt holding it in to the block and bracket, no dedicated ground for the alternator, and it is running much better, between 12.5 and 14 volts during driving.

does your main battery ground cable go from battery to engine block,/ or even a stud head bolt on starter itself,, as well as a body ground straight from battery,if so then a engine to frame ground isn't needed for starter operation..

The main ground goes from battery to block, then another cable from block to frame from the same bolt in the block.

intermittant starting issues being a 70 bronco or a 2018 whatever ,, testing while the condition is present is key,,, test light , multimeter .. second person to turn key when needed .....how did you test battery? 100 %charged and load tested?,,,

I have a yellow top and a charger for it.. I have had some notification from my alarm system that the battery has been low lately, under 12.4 volts, so I charge it up if she's been sitting for more than a day or two, but I normally drive her 3-4 week.

positive battery cable from battery straight to starter? not on OE type starter.. { starter would run constantly}.....or you have PMGR starter? requires two wires hooked up to starter soleniod/piggybacked on starter?

yes.. battery cable straight to after market starter.. solenoid is piggybacked on starter.

at time of no start and click is time to do voltage drop test test on both sides of starter relay , good voltage from ignition switch to small start post on relay

I haven't been able to do any real testing because once I get the click, she has always fired back up on subsequent attempts. yesterday morning I just took the key out and tried again... A couple other times, I bridged the gap between the constant battery and ignition wires on the starter and it turned... at that point, I could hop back in and start it with the key...

I'm not sure what to check next other than tracing the ignition wire and seeing if there is some possible break or corrosion.. any other ideas?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[DirtDonk]

yes.. battery cable straight to after market starter.. solenoid is piggybacked on starter.

There may be some out there with success stories that we have not heard from, but we have certainly heard the stories of failures of using this wiring scenario. Even Ford does not wire the starters this way.
Even after going to a PMGR starter with the solenoid piggybacking the motor, Ford continued to use the fender mounted starter relay. It does double duty.
It creates an easy to access central wiring point, AND it's primary duty is to lower the load on the ignition switch. Which, apparently, Broncos got short shrift on.
From the very first few years of Broncos being converted to solenoid type starters, the stories started coming out of failed ignition switches. Sometimes many months later, sometimes within days of installing the starter.
And with the quality (or lack thereof) of modern parts, including ignition switches, it would not be surprising if even brand new switches lived a very short life when connected directly to the starter's solenoid.

I remember talking about this aspect, but did anyone ever do a study on the difference in current draw (as seen at the ignition switch) between a Ford relay and a PMGR solenoid?
I would not have thought it was a big difference, but it sure would be quite the coincidence if the switches simply failed due to bad timing!

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

I pulled the ignition switch and it looked like it was in super bad shape

What does this mean exactly?

so I replaced it and it seemed to fix the issue.

New parts seem to be a short-term fix anymore. Bad quality overall.

I pulled the key out, put her in neutral and decided to try one more time and she fired right up.

Manual, or automatic transmission? Sorry if you already answered that, but I did not catch it.
Either way, your '73 is going to have either a Neutral Safety Switch, or it's going to have a connector with a jumper wires to bypass a missing NSS.
Switches go bad with age, they come out of adjustment with time, and the jumper wires fail.
If either of these components is starting to go, you can get intermittent starting.

I was wondering if the battery could just be on the brink of needing replacement, thinking that taking it out of reverse, gave it just enough power to crank.. I have a couple after market lights hooked up to reverse so I can see where I'm going better at night.

Are they LED's? If so, their draw is minimal.
And while yes, a truly defective (about to fail) battery could do this, I don't think it's common for a battery that's simply losing it's battle with time is going to give you nothing, then start just fine.
Could be, but I'm more on the other aspects.

At this point I have remade and replaced all the main power and ground connections except the alternator cable to battery, but I did get in and clean up the alternator ground.. just the bolt holding it in to the block and bracket, no dedicated ground for the alternator, and it is running much better, between 12.5 and 14 volts during driving.

The alternator connection will have nothing to do with a start/no-start condition. But something is definitely wrong...
With the engine running and the system working properly, you should never see 12.5 volts. The 14v is great, but if it drops to 12.5 at some point, then at that point something is amiss.
At least that's how I understand it. Maybe someone can put some detail in there.

A couple other times, I bridged the gap between the constant battery and ignition wires on the starter and it turned... at that point, I could hop back in and start it with the key...

If this is consistent, it leads back to a bad connection, or a bad switch. Or a bad jumper wire in the case of a manual transmission.

How exactly is your ignition switch connected to the new starter? Did you run a dedicated wire from the switch, or did you splice into the original Red w/blue wire somewhere?
I have learned to suspect splices a long time ago. Even perfectly good looking ones.

Paul

 

[dsmelfi]

Thanks for the reply, Paul. I appreciate the time and information...

A couple of notes off the top.. I had a shop convert from auto (4R70W) to AX15 and redo all the wiring at the same time which was about 3 years and 20k miles ago... so I cannot speak to how the switch is wired, but it has been working for 3 years with this setup. I will say that I have had found many bad ground wires and other wiring garbage as I have added things over the years... and the AX install was another horrible story where I had to adjust/install/fix some pretty basic things... So at this point, I am not confident in the wiring job in general.

I have redone many of the power and ground connections with an aftermarket distribution block for power because they had the WH one-wire alternator install kit and were using the in-line fuse as the main power distribution.. See before and after pics... I blacked out the logo on the wires so I'm not calling out the shop that did the work.

What does this mean exactly?

The switch was very worn and dirty inside... compared to the new one, I really had to crank it much further to the right to get the connection to engage. The new switch has a much better feel so I was hopeful that was the issue.

Manual, or automatic transmission? Sorry if you already answered that, but I did not catch it.
Either way, your '73 is going to have either a Neutral Safety Switch, or it's going to have a connector with a jumper wires to bypass a missing NSS.
Switches go bad with age, they come out of adjustment with time, and the jumper wires fail.
If either of these components is starting to go, you can get intermittent starting.

Manual transmission (AX15) Is there any telling where this could be located? Under dash somewhere I imagine? The new harness that was installed is the CENTECH.

Are they LED's? If so, their draw is minimal.
And while yes, a truly defective (about to fail) battery could do this, I don't think it's common for a battery that's simply losing it's battle with time is going to give you nothing, then start just fine.
Could be, but I'm more on the other aspects.

Yes... LED. Which I though wouldn't be a deciding factor.. I just realized that thinking back, I am pretty sure that every time it didn't start it could very well have been in reverse.. I back into parking spots.. the obviously when I manually bridge the connection on the starter, the truck has been in neutral.

Another thing that could be contributing to a low battery may be my alarm system... it has a 4G connection with geo location services... I have previously checked for a parasitic drain but maybe it is time to do that work again?

If this is consistent, it leads back to a bad connection, or a bad switch. Or a bad jumper wire in the case of a manual transmission.

How exactly is your ignition switch connected to the new starter? Did you run a dedicated wire from the switch, or did you splice into the original Red w/blue wire somewhere?
I have learned to suspect splices a long time ago. Even perfectly good looking ones.

At this point, I think I would need to trace the ignition wire and see where that goes. I will do that as I can and update the post.

Thank you again for the responses! This is truly the best site on the internet and a fantastic community.

 

[DirtDonk]

Centech is completely different from factory. Uses GM color codes.
Purple wire is to starter relay. Or in your case, directly to starter solenoid. There will be no neutral safety switch in this case. Not with the AX15 anyway. But the 4R70W would have had one. In one form or another.
I don’t know what form it would have taken if you’re not running full Efi and computer. Were you? Depends on how the builders installed it.

How was the transmission being controlled previously through its range switch?
Did you have a Ford computer? Or an aftermarket controller?

 

[dsmelfi]

I do have proflo 4 EFI. No idea about the transmission controller.

 

[DirtDonk]

OK, so pro flow computer.
Whatever you’re using, the ignition switch should consistently send 12V to the purple (sorry, “violet”) wire going to the starter relay/solenoid.
If it’s not there every time you turn the key, no clicky no starty.

At this point, my recommendation is to follow the violet wire from the ignition switch, to wherever it goes. Look for any additional purple/violet wires that might be in series with it. Or parallel with it.
At some point in the past, Centech used two separate wires. One was straight from the switch to the starter relay for manual transmissions, the other was a longer one meant to go to a neutral safety switch before hitting the starter relay.
Find all the violet wires and see what they do.
They have only one purpose in this harness, so there should be none to do anything but send a START signal to the starter, and perhaps the computer/ignition.

 

[dsmelfi]

Sounds good. I will report back when I know more. Thank you again!