Wiring Quandary

[DirtDonk]

Thanks Oldtimer. I was actually looking for that spade connector, but couldn’t see it.
So it looked to me like the big stud was already jumpered to the motor stud.
I believe you’re correct.

Did any instructions come with your starter Swailsd?

 

[Swailsd]

Need to wire the starter like a Chevy.
The big stud on solenoid needs constant 12v direct from battery source.
There is a smaller stud with spade contact on solenoid that needs start signal from ignition switch.
I would not pull that much current directly from ignition switch.
Use the Ford starter relay on fender to trigger solenoid on starter.

View attachment 941388

Oldtimer I’m not doubting this AT ALL because I really know nothing about this, but it seems this way is using one solenoid to trigger the other on which seems redundant. Can u elaborate on this more please?

 

[Swailsd]

Thanks Oldtimer. I was actually looking for that spade connector, but couldn’t see it.
So it looked to me like the big stud was already jumpered to the motor stud.
I believe you’re correct.

Did any instructions come with your starter Swailsd?

I’ll have to look when I get home, I’m in south ga so the time change is a bit off for us

 

[Oldtimer]

Read this post, and refer to below schematics copied from it:

More efficient starting method than solenoid?

A Bosch/Tyco/ISO cube relay rated for 30A can't operate a starter that draws a nominal 140A. Post pics showing the relay you're using & how exactly it's wired in. Good to know, but it's still a flawed design because tightening the main lugs causes the internal contacts to mis-align. From my...

classicbroncos.com

Quoted from above post:
"And even though the solenoid draws less current than the starter motor, it still draws too much for the ignition switch, which is why a starter relay is still required. If you're going to use that style of starter, you should use the matching circuit."

 

[Swailsd]

Read this post, and refer to below schematics copied from it:

http://[URL]https://classicbroncos....thod-than-solenoid.325789/page-2#post-3571747

[/URL]

Quoted from above post:
"And even though the solenoid draws less current than the starter motor, it still draws too much for the ignition switch, which is why a starter relay is still required. If you're going to use that style of starter, you should use the matching circuit."

View attachment 941422

*So I would just swap my existing starter cable to the battery side of the fender mounted relay and run the jumper/start wire to the starter side of that same relay from the small post on the solenoid on the starter itself. *Sounds easy enough.
*Although now I will have 3 large cables connected to the battery side of the fender mounted relay and the painless 916 wire that the main power for the harness. *hopefully the studs are long enough

 

[DirtDonk]

That’s been a long-standing problem. Tight quarters on the stud.
Some later model starter relays had longer studs. Not sure what brands or models might be an improvement.
Then again, that’s another argument for a separate power stud mounted nearby to take the excess.

Many people have used alternate wiring schemes, including leaving the main cable where you have it, and running a secondary smaller wire to the small connector. Or a short secondary small wire directly from the large stud on the starter to the adjacent blade connector on the starter.
Both of these have been used with varying results. Some people claim to have zero problems, while others have momentary starter run-on issues.
The standard accepted method, however, is to do it as Oldtimer described.

 

[Swailsd]

That’s been a long-standing problem. Tight quarters on the stud.
Some later model starter relays had longer studs. Not sure what brands or models might be an improvement.
Then again, that’s another argument for a separate power stud mounted nearby to take the excess.

Many people have used alternate wiring schemes, including leaving the main cable where you have it, and running a secondary smaller wire to the small connector. Or a short secondary small wire directly from the large stud on the starter to the adjacent blade connector on the starter.
Both of these have been used with varying results. Some people claim to have zero problems, while others have momentary starter run-on issues.
The standard accepted method, however, is to do it as Oldtimer described.

*I do have the new 3 stud pancake style relay so the studs are a little longer than the normal relay so maybe they’ll work if I flip one or 2
*On another note I’ll be using the painless 919 red/blue neutral safety switch wire for my switched source on the small stud on the relay? Is this acceptable?

 

[DirtDonk]

It’s the only way. That’s what that wire is there for.

By the way, as long as you don’t have a positive going to ground, or a ground going to a positive power source, you’re not gonna burn anything down.
The worst that could happen if the starter is hooked up wrong, is that as soon as you connect the battery, the starter will crank.
But you’ll know that immediately, and can disconnect the battery until the problem is corrected.
And as long as you’re not in gear when that happens, nothing bad is gonna happen, except the starter will spin.
Same for if there is something wrong with the red with blue 919 wire, the only two things that could happen would be, either the starter spins as soon as you turn the key, or the starter doesn’t spin at all.
No melting, no kaboom, and no smoke.

When you first get things connected and tested, as part of the testing procedures, it’s always good to immediately verify that the starter does not crank when in gear. Only in neutral and park.
Confirming that the neutral safety switch is indeed good. Not just new…

 

[Swailsd]

Thanks for everyone’s responses. I truly appreciate it and I’ll probably have more ignorant questions shortly, but with y’all’s help I’m sure to get through it
Thanks

 

[DirtDonk]

You got this. Can’t wait to hear that it cranked up!
By the way, when I said, no melting and no smoke, I meant “in theory“ and “if nothing else is crazy wrong“ and stuff like that!
You know… Normal Bronco stuff!

 

[Swailsd]

I don't have the box, but it's just about the same installation. I re-purposed the painless #954 white/black electric choke wire for the switched sniper source.

I was going over all my wiring before the first startup and noticed the #16 spot on the pdm calls for 12v switched and the painless 954 wire you have connected there is a B+ (battery constant 12v). Did you end up using this wire without any problems or did you find a switched source from a different wire??

 

[davisjstone]

I was going over all my wiring before the first startup and noticed the #16 spot on the pdm calls for 12v switched and the painless 954 wire you have connected there is a B+ (battery constant 12v). Did you end up using this wire without any problems or did you find a switched source from a different wire??

So far no problems with it. Not quite back on the road yet but seems to be working fine. Painless 954 is not a battery constant from my recollection. It's hot in start/run which is what you want for the sniper.

Here are some posts I found.
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/electric-choke-wire.279287/
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/painless-and-holley-sniper.279229/

 

[Swailsd]

Well guys today was the big day. Got everything wired up and connected at the battery and when I turned the key………
Absolutely nothing seems to have no power to the fuse box. Everything tests out at the starter relay, maxi fuse and the midi fuse and both sides, but nothing at the fuse box. Stopping for tonight will resume tomorrow. Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[DirtDonk]

Well, can’t really help at this point. Not till you trace down where the power stops.
If you’re connected to the battery, check for power on both sides of both fuses.
But specifically the one powering the fuse panel.
That should be one of the fuses right there at the starter relay. I don’t have the diagram in front of me, but typically it’s a black wire on a bronco, but a red wire on everything else.
What does Painless use in this case?
Either way, make sure you’ve got power on both sides of the fuse.
If so, start measuring for power on all the fused circuits at the panel. See where you have power and where you don’t.
But check the main fuses first.

 

[SLOWnEASY]

If it helps you can check for power at each side of a standard modern fuse without pulling the fuse. There is an access hole at the end of each blade of the fuse to poke with a meter or test light and measure for power.

 

[Swailsd]

Well, can’t really help at this point. Not till you trace down where the power stops.
If you’re connected to the battery, check for power on both sides of both fuses.
But specifically the one powering the fuse panel.
That should be one of the fuses right there at the starter relay. I don’t have the diagram in front of me, but typically it’s a black wire on a bronco, but a red wire on everything else.
What does Painless use in this case?
Either way, make sure you’ve got power on both sides of the fuse.
If so, start measuring for power on all the fused circuits at the panel. See where you have power and where you don’t.
But check the main fuses first.

Power on both sides of the fuses, 175 amp maxi fuse and the black 916 painless power wire that is on a 60 amp midi fuse.

 

[DirtDonk]

What about the fuse panel itself? Any power to any of them?
I don’t know if painless runs the black 916 direct to the panel, or goes through its original circuitous route first. I know that they also power the ammeter, if using a stock layout, but perhaps like Centech they run it straight to the fuse panel first.
Somebody may have to consult the latest painless diagrams.

 

[Swailsd]

No power at the fuse box

 

[DirtDonk]

Curious. Is the wire from the midi fuse to the fuse panel marked specifically? What does it say?
Just wondering, if, with Painless, you can mix up the black wires and get this result. Meaning that instead of the wire to the fuse panel, you are actually using the wire that would’ve gone to the alternator.
I know on a stock harness they’re the same wire, but on a Painless harness, they could be broken up in the middle somewhere.
It’s a longshot, but if the wire is not all wrapped up, what does it say on it?

 

[Swailsd]

Black #916 to midi fuse
Connects to B+\ Function
Ammeter/function