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ZF5 Hard Clutch Problem Solved! Full Write-up post #20

tailpipe

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So I've seen some recent ZF5 chatter here on the board and need to ask a question to the crowd. I have recently finished up my ZF swap, but the pedal pressure is killing me. I understand that this is a "big truck" transmission, but there is no way the pedal should be this hard. I'm talking about your leg starts shaking after just a few seconds of depressing the pedal (maybe need to spend more time in the gym). Is the excessive pressure due to the pressure plate, the slave/throw out bearing, or the length of the pedal itself? I am running a matching clutch and pressure plate for a 94 F-250, stock slave/throw out bearing for a 94 F-250, and l modified my stock 73 clutch pedal to accept the master cylinder push rod. Would I have any better luck with a stock EB pressure plate? Are there different tensions/resistance between hydraulic and manual clutches, or is this the price we have to pay for a fifth gear? Just so it's said, all components are new or rebuild; new master and line, new slave, new pressure plate and clutch, rebuilt transmission. Any insight is appreciated.
 
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Nevadasmith

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I have a zf5 in mine I used 95 300 6 pressure plate and throw out bearing(250 i6), mounted a little tab to the eb stock petal, my petal pressure is super light!(think Ford focus Light) But I made sure I measured the pivot arm length from the doner truck and made my linkage the same length from the pivot, that put me inches above the speedometer cable hole that most people use. I had to drill 3 new holes in the fire wall, and tilt the master about 5* to get the upper mounting bolt to clear the support bracket for the petal box, this has worked out amazingly well! I suspect you mounted your master cylinder lower witch changes the pressure ratio and stroke. I can measure mine and get some pictures of my set up tonight, send me a pm.
 
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Nevadasmith

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You can't use the early pressure plate as the hydraulic through out bearing is not compatible with the 3 finger design, you must use a diaphragm style pressure plate
 

Nevadasmith

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So I made an auto cad Sketch of the clutch geometry, here are the numbers on what worked for me.
From CL of petal pivot my extension tab CL is 2.75"
The hole in the extension tab is 1" from CL of the petal arm, and perpendicular to the CL
The master cylinder CL is 2-5/16 below CL of the petal pivot, as measured only in the vertical plane.

This puts the clutch master ruffly about the same height as the brake master cylinder.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lhwha4lTzrmoExtZ2

This was actually a picture taken while I was working on my weldernator, but if you look close you can see the speedometer cable hole below and to the right of the clutch master........yeah the engine bay is a mess please ignore that part i'm working on cleaning it up.
 

hankjr

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so im using the Locofomoco plate to hold hydroboost and slave. Entry point for pushrod is above speedo hole. i've figured a way to get the pivot point lower on the clutch pedal for travel and leverage purposes and still use the master position i have. i did match slave and master from same vehicle and have the one mentioned with the downward facing hose exit. i got the hose from same vehicle from rock auto and took it to a local hose shop. they cut the working ends off and crimped them to braided hose for me. should all be installed soon, so not pedal feel results yet.

key points, matching master and slave (bore) and having proper mechanical advantage to push master (travel, pedal feel).

Hank
 
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OP
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tailpipe

tailpipe

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Thank you for the replies and links guys. After reading through all the information I am convinced my issue is being caused by improper clutch pivot and push rod length/angle/stoke.

Nevadasmith, pm being sent.
 

NYLES

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internal or external slave? Mines internal with centerforce II for an F250, compares to Tacoma clutch
 

Crush

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So for nevadasmith.... i used the three finger pressure plate with the f250 hydraulic throwout bearing and it worked fine. It was definately stiffer. I used the clutch/press plate/and flywheel from my 77 when i did the 351/5spd conversion because inwas short on funds. The flywheel had burnt spots on it so i put all new in a year later but used stock 77 bronco replacement but this time went with the diaphragm press plate and it reduced the pedal pressure. But the three finger DOES work with the hydraulic throwout bearing
 

sykanr0ng

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My understanding is that the three finger clutch will work, but the three fingers put all the pressure on three small spots on the hydraulic throw-out bearing which makes them have a shorter life.
Changing a throw-out bearing is a major PITA, especially when the clutch and pressure plate are still good and do not need changed, and the hydraulic throw-out bearing are more expensive than the fork type.
This on top of being stiffer when shifting.

Will it work? For some values of work, yes.
Is it a good idea? That is the real question.
 

Nevadasmith

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So for nevadasmith.... i used the three finger pressure plate with the f250 hydraulic throwout bearing and it worked fine. It was definately stiffer. I used the clutch/press plate/and flywheel from my 77 when i did the 351/5spd conversion because inwas short on funds. The flywheel had burnt spots on it so i put all new in a year later but used stock 77 bronco replacement but this time went with the diaphragm press plate and it reduced the pedal pressure. But the three finger DOES work with the hydraulic throwout bearing
I stand corrected, when I was doing my conversion, I was warned against doing that combination. I remember there was something I didn't like about the fit up between the two, and at the last minute I ran and got a diaphragm style pressure plate, must have just decided it wouldn't work, and that stuck with me.
Sorry for putting out bad information. Not my intent.
 
OP
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tailpipe

tailpipe

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Fixed! Follow Nevadasmith's (Silas) measurements and you won't be disappointed. After throwing money at parts with no change in results, it came down to a geometry issue. There will be a full tech write-up coming in the very near future. I have read lots of articles discussing this issue, but no one is talking geometry. Thanks again Silas!
 

DirtDonk

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Cool beans! Looking forward to the write-up. Glad it's working better for you now.

Paul
 

DEEPWOODS

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I have the same problem with mine it is the BC ZF kit . The BC MC I have has the hose off the bottom is it a 3/4 bore or can it be a 7/8 bore can you tell from the pic
 

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hankjr

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I can find the box that mine came in. It looks to be the same. You should be able to back calculate the dorman part number to figure bore on rock auto

Moment

Hank
 

DEEPWOODS

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I matched up the numbers on the MC and found it online and it is the smaller one .709 bore it is installed using the lowest bolt in the pedal mounting bracket as the upper mount hole on the MC
 

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OP
OP
tailpipe

tailpipe

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That master cylinder (.709 bore) is a stock Ford master. It sounds like you are having the same problem that I had. It basically comes down to geometry, the speedometer hole is too low to gain the proper pedal ratio that is needed. Follow nevadasmith's measurements above and you will have your problem fixed. Since you are also running hyrdoboost brakes there won't be any interference. The picture shows the difference in mounting locations that I had.
 

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Crush

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I think it depends on which master you use as to where the hole needs to be. my master has the hose coming out of the front and not the bottom and the base does not rotate like the one in tailpipes pic. it is a solid piece of plastic. I used the speedo cable hole for mine and it is working perfect. seems to be the correct ratio. Even though mine is a M5OD application, I used the ZF internal slave and matching master cylinders. I got lucky though, I didn't know that there were 2 different bores and just ordered an internal slave for the truck I took the master off of and it all worked.
 
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tailpipe

tailpipe

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ZF5 Hard Clutch Problem Solved (full write-up)

​
ZF-5 Hydraulic Clutch Geometry: Stock Ford Parts
​
Hard Clutch Problem Solved

Craig (Tailpipe) Wilcox and Silas (Nevadasmith) Howell

The ZF-5 transmission swap has been a popular upgrade for many years now. As we are seeing more and more of these modern five speeds going into our rigs, there seems to be somewhat of a shortage of information about how to achieve the best results the first time around. This was my experience (and frustration) as I did the swap. The issue is not necessarily in swapping the actual transmission, but rather the hydraulic clutch system. For my application, as I always try to do when making conversions and upgrades, I used readily available stock Ford parts. I do this for two reasons; 1) junkyard are awesome and 2) I prefer to use parts that I can get quickly from the major auto parts stores (special order parts are hard to find on the trails).

Now I do need to say there are instructions out there that deal with installing a hydraulic clutch in the Early Bronco, but even following those, I was not achieving the results I desired (or that were correct with my equipment for that matter). Cory Walden (Desert Thrasher) has a very good and detailed article doing this conversion using Wilwood components that I am sure achieves great results, but his method left a lot to be desired when using stock Ford parts. This article is not to contradict Cory’s method, but rather to address another method when using stock Ford parts. You can check out Cory’s write-up at http://classicbroncos.com/hydraulicclutch.shtml.

After the initial installation, the problem that I was facing was an extremely hard clutch. To make matters even worse, the clutch was more or less operating as an on/off switch; no feathering or control in terms of clutch engagement and disengagement. For my initial installation, I used the existing 24-year-old parts that came from the donor truck. Thinking this was the culprit of my issues; I pulled the transmission and installed a brand new clutch and pressure plate, new slave cylinder, and a new master cylinder. During the process of bleeding the system, I quickly found that my problem was not remedied at all. Enter Silas Howell (Nevadasmith). After posting my problem to the forum, Silas quickly answered with a solution that I had not read about nor heard mentioned to this point; geometry. Silas had the foresight to take measurements from the donor vehicles (mid 90’s F-250/350) with regards to pivot arm length, pedal ratio and stroke. To make things even easier, he then made the drawing that's attached. (PDF)

Following these measurements, you will be left with very nice, light clutch pressure that will make you think you’re driving a little four banger.
For the purposes of this write up and my particular set-up, the following parts are used:
1992-1996 F-250 5.8 or 300 clutch master cylinder with line
1992-1996 F-250 5.8 or 300 slave cylinder and throw out bearing assembly
1992-1996 F-250 5.8 or 300 clutch and pressure plate kit

When doing the ZF-5 swap, most end up mounting the master cylinder in the speedometer cable hole; this actually puts the push rod too low on the pedal causing an improper ratio.

For our method here, we both (Silas and I) made the measurements, welded and drilled on the bench. Since I have never been a big fan of pulling steering columns, I removed the pivot arm from the pedal box to retrieve the pedal.

Here is the step by step:

1. Remove the fresh air vent box from the cowl so you have access to the pedal assembly.

2. Remove the cotter pin on the right side of the pivot arm (closest to the accelerator) Picture 1

3. Drive the pivot rod out to the left (toward the clutch pedal ensuring all the plastic bushings are accounted for and not damaged).

4. With the clutch pedal removed, chuck it in the vise with the pivot rod and bushings in place.

5. Find the centerline (CL) of the pivot rod and mark or center punch. Take careful measurements, as this will be the base for all measurements. Picture 2

*For instructional purposes only* I’m using a 69 Mustang pedal for demonstration in this write-up (didn’t feel like pulling the whole thing a part again).

6. Following the measurements in the drawing, measure from the CL of the pivot rod down the pedal 2 5/8” and mark appropriately. This will become the CL of your extension tab.

7. Fabricate a steel plate (I used 1/4” steel) to serve as the extension tab from the clutch pedal. The tab should be measured and fabricated based on the measurements given in the drawing (mark but do not drill the hole at this time, see Note 2).

8. Determine the CL of the extension tab and mark it fully across the piece. This mark will be lined up with your pedal mark for welding.

9. Ensuring you keep all marks aligned, weld the extension tab to the clutch pedal. Picture 3

10. Now this is where it starts to get tricky. Since the master cylinder will not be mounted in the existing speedometer hole, we need to measure, mark, and drill the new location on the firewall. The master cylinder location will be approximately 2” above and slightly inboard from the speedometer hole when all is said and done. I found it easiest to partially install the pivot rod with the CL marking facing inboard (towards the accelerator) and the clutch pedal to make my measurements. I took my time making these measurements and I suggest you do as well unless you don’t mind your firewall looking like a piece of Swiss cheese (measure twice, cut once). Again, referring to the measurements on the drawing, measure and mark the location 2” below the pivot rod CL on the firewall. I found this to be easiest to make a vertical plain mark on the firewall that reflected the CL of the pivot rod. From that mark, I measured down 2” and marked. In order for this to work, the clutch pedal must be in its final position. Before drilling, I held my push rod in place to determine if the hole marking was good and to determine if the firewall marking was accurate. Of note, the push rod will be mounted on the right side of the tab, or inboard of the pedal. If you measure correctly, the mark (or CL of the master cylinder) should end up to the right, or inside, of the pedal mounting bracket. Notice the relationship between the speedometer hole and the actual mounting position of the master cylinder; displayed are manual brake and hydroboost applications. Pictures 4-7.

11. Once the master cylinder mounting position has been determined and marked, drill a pilot hole through the firewall. I drilled my pilot from inside out, but you could transfer the mark to the outside and drill from there.

12. With the pilot hole drilled, use a 1 ¼” hole saw to make the final mounting hole.

13. After the hole is drilled, install the master cylinder in place with the push rod installed and verify the extension tab mark, adjust if necessary. Despite my careful measurements and constantly rechecking everything, I ended up off somehow and had to make a slight adjustment. Regardless, everything still worked appropriately so try it out prior to throwing parts through the wall. Picture 8

14. Remove the pivot rod and clutch pedal and drill the hole for the desired mounting mechanism. I chose to use a ½” piece of all thread and plug welded it in place. This will fit the stock push rod eyelet or you can build or buy a custom heim joint adjustable push rod (Note 3). This is also a great time to clean and lube up that pivot rod that hasn’t seen the light of day for 41+ years.

15. With the master cylinder in place, mark and drill the two holes for the mounting bolts. Using appropriate fasteners, mount the master cylinder in place and connect the push rod to the pedal.

16. Fully reinstall the clutch and brake pedals, ensuring that all the plastic bushings are in place.

17. Finally, bleed the system and enjoy a Ford Focus like clutch!

* Note 1* For our two applications, I am running hydroboost brakes and Silas is running manual brakes. Unfortunately, I no longer have my power brake booster assembly to use to check fitment, so at this time we are unsure how these measurements will work with a stock brake booster. In order for this to be a viable option for all of us, we would like to know if it is possible to achieve these measurements with vacuum assisted brakes.

*Note 2* If you noticed in the pictures I have an firewall reinforcement plate (black firewall). It is a ¼” piece of flat steel cut to the same shape as the stock plate. I did this more so for the hyrdoboost, but I know there were some issues with firewall flex in the 1990s F Series trucks so I added it to help both. Silas does not have an extra plate (yellow firewall), and does have firewall flex from the pressure and will be adding the reinforcement plate. This additional ¼” plays a factor in the extension tab bolthole. If you do not have a plate, your measurement should fall between 1” and 1 1/8”. To avoid any error it is important to check the final mounting location of the push rod with the master cylinder in place and the pedal in the full rest position.

*Note 3* For those who would like to build an adjustable hiem joint push rod the following parts will be needed:
McMaster Carr P/N 90268A325 (coupling nut ¼”-28)
McMaster Carr P/N 60645K121 (rod end ¼”-28)
You can also check out www.mcmaster.com for any size or style you choose.

We hopes this help some of you solve this problem. It may sound hard, but it is actually quite simple. Feedback is welcomed, especially with regards to vacuum assisted brakes. This is by no means the end all be all for this modification, just a method that worked for a guy that "tried it all".
 

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