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Troubleshooting brakes i need some help

TheBuckinBronco

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Feb 2, 2018
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I installed front disk brakes on my bronco from toms bronco parts after a scary sudden stop on the freeway. i installed and bled them repeatedly with a new master cylinder and disk brake proportioning valve. the brakes are very weak now and i have to pump the brakes to get any pressure. I would like to be wrong so i can drive my bronco again. I have a dana 30 front axle if it makes a difference
 

DirtDonk

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Hey TBB. Welcome to classicbroncos.com. Sorry it's for such an inauspicious reason!

First, did you also install a power booster? Or are they still manual?
Second, are you sure you ground enough material off of the knuckle for caliper clearance?

Easy to check the second one. Just look down over the top of the wheel and if you can't see daylight and the ground between the caliper and knuckle casting, you need to grind more.

For the other, if you installed a booster you may have the rod adjustment off slightly.

But just to be clear, what was the sudden stop on the freeway? Did you need to hit the brakes hard and now they don't work the same? Or did they start to apply themselves basically and stop you when you didn't want to.

Good luck.

Paul
 
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TheBuckinBronco

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Feb 2, 2018
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Thank you for the reply, the bronco had a power booster before i did the install. the stop which was 4 wheel drum was pulling and trying to lock up. I did grind enough of the knuckle. How would i go about ensuring the push rod out of the booster is long enough.

Thank you again
 

DirtDonk

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Ok I misread your post. I see now about the scary stop with the old brakes, and the new ones not feeling right.

The adjustment check is a pretty easy procedure in most cases.
Even though you had one before, there's just no guarantee that the old and new mate up together like they did when everything was matched up. That's why the booster rods are (for the most part) adjustable.
It's basically part of the setup procedure for any master cylinder OR booster change, so for the next time you'll know. Assuming you don't forget it all years from now if it's even necessary again!
I've had master cylinders last twenty years, and there's a lot I can forget in twenty years!%)

Anyway, if your pedal traveling too much, or feels soft, it could be the rod length.
If it's actually "mushy" when the brakes are being applied, that usually indicates air is still in the system even though they've been bled.
If it's firm at the end, but still travels too far, that's usually the rod adjustment.

Unbolt the master from the booster (you can usually leave the fluid lines connected to the master for this) and pull it forward to gain access to the booster rod.
The tip is usually threaded on to the rod itself. Can you twist it by hand? If not you may have to loosen a lock nut.
Twist the rod "out" (lefty loosey) a couple of turns and start to push the master cylinder back gently until it either seats on the booster or the rod touches down on the back of the piston first. Keep turning it out until you know the rod hits home before the master meets the booster. This is indicated (obviously) by the mounting flange not laying flat against the booster.

Once you have determined it's out too far, turn the adjustment back inward until you can seat the master to the booster just before the rod touches the piston.
I have always quoted (from memory though) a 1/64th inch gap between the rod and the piston. Someone recently posted up a measurement from the Ford shop manual that was different. Much less I think, which makes sense, but makes it harder to determine by the "feel" method rather than just measuring.
Since measuring with most tools involves removing the master completely to measure the bore depth, then comparing that to the extension of the booster rod, this "best guess by feel" method has been a lifesaver for those hoping to avoid pulling the lines and bleeding again. As you can imagine.
Basically though, you want as little free-play as possible between the rod and piston. Give the pedal ratio is probably in the 6:1 to 8:1 area, even just a 1/8" of gap there will be close to an inch at the pedal!

So do your best guess to where the booster rod is seated as close to the piston as possible without actually touching it. Then drive to see what's going on.

Crossing fingers!

Paul
 

DirtDonk

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On a side note, but one that's directly related, how did you bleed the brakes?
First, are both calipers mounted so that the bleeder screws are nearer the top of the caliper? This is critical, and gets overlooked a lot!

Next, did you pull the little brass nipple thingy on the front of the proportioning valve when bleeding the front brakes? This is less than critical sometimes, but can also come back to haunt you when things aren't just right.
This spring-loaded valve inside will restrict flow to the front.

And because of that last thing, once you get the pedal decent and if the fronts still don't do their thing, you might try pulling that brass tab out and holding it there with some locking pliers or the special tool they show in the books and drive it with the valve open.
If it works after that, then your prop valve is defective and needs to be replaced.
The metering valve by itself can be replaced, but some manufacturers just prefer to replace the entire unit (actually called a "combination valve" these days instead of just proportioning valve) instead.

It's not all the time, but happens often enough that it's one of the reasons I like to recommend the manually adjustable prop valves in just the rear wheel circuit. Still have to modify the plumbing to make them fit, but less finicky and you can balance it to your specific rig's characteristics.

Paul
 

73azbronco

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Pump the brakes to me sounds like air in lines, improper master cylinder size, or lines hooked to wrong port on master cylinder.
 

DirtDonk

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Good points too. So is the new master cylinder the type with equal sized ports for the lines? Or is it a stock-type master with "keyed" ports where only one hose goes in only one place?
If the former, did you install the brake line for the front brakes in the rear reservoir port? That's where it should go, so if not, you should swap them around.

To the size of the master, if it's the aftermarket style it's probably a 1.125" size piston (assumption only on my part) which would be fine. But if it's the stock type, it could be a 1" bore master cylinder. If so, that would explain at least some of your longer travel.
The newer GM-based calipers are a larger piston design and will let the pedal travel farther than they would have with your original brakes.

But that would not explain any "mushiness" so in that case you still need to bleed, bleed, bleed...;D

Paul
 

Slowleak

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Brake fluid will expand when your discs/calipers heat from use. That can cause the brakes to drag, or even lock if you take too much free-play out of the booster rod. Be careful if you adjust it.....
 

Timmy390

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I always run to the calipers being on upside down.

It happen to me with my conversion...........

Tim
 
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TheBuckinBronco

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Next, did you pull the little brass nipple thingy on the front of the proportioning valve when bleeding the front brakes? This is less than critical sometimes, but can also come back to haunt you when things aren't just right.
This spring-loaded valve inside will restrict flow to the front.

This might be my problem. I haven't touched the combination valve since i installed it. Is it possible that its trapping air in the system?
 

DirtDonk

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Anything is possible, but most people don't bother to pull it and don't have much in the way of trouble bleeding their brakes. So I can't automatically lay blame for that on the valve.
But I believe that with those things, anything is possible.

Paul
 

B RON CO

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Hi, as mentioned, make sure the bleeder screws are up top on the calipers. If they are on the bottom, the calipers are on the wrong sides. Good luck
 

B RON CO

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Hi, also figured I'd mention that when you are bleeding to start at the right rear, left rear, right front and left front. Also pump the pedal gently and slowly, gently and slowly three or four times before opening the bleeder screw. Close the screw before the helper lets up on the pedal.
Repeat each wheel cylinder and caliper until you get a nice stream of brake fluid with no bubbles. Good luck
 
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TheBuckinBronco

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Feb 2, 2018
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So i overnighted the bleeder tool i needed for the proportioning valve, bench bled the master, bled the system again till no bubbles came out. To my disappointment it went to the floor again. This is almost enough to make a man cry. The only thing i can think is i need a bigger master cylinder
 

Broncobowsher

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Stick your head under the truck. Look at the bleeder. Is it pointing toward 12 o'clock? Or is it pointing toward 5 or 7 o'clock?

Don't spend a penny more buying ANYTHING until you come back and tell us. Without that bit of info this thread is now dead.
 

Tugross302

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I can tell by the responses that I’m not the only one who’s put calipers on the wrong side and got the bleeders on the bottom. Makes me feel better
 

bronkenn

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Stick your head under the truck. Look at the bleeder. Is it pointing toward 12 o'clock? Or is it pointing toward 5 or 7 o'clock?

Don't spend a penny more buying ANYTHING until you come back and tell us. Without that bit of info this thread is now dead.

I love poetry.
 
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TheBuckinBronco

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Feb 2, 2018
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Some good news i took the bronco for a drive today and the brakes stop the car; not very quickly but it does stop it. I might just have to do a few more bleedings or adjust the booster pushrod
 
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TheBuckinBronco

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Feb 2, 2018
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Stick your head under the truck. Look at the bleeder. Is it pointing toward 12 o'clock? Or is it pointing toward 5 or 7 o'clock?

Don't spend a penny more buying ANYTHING until you come back and tell us. Without that bit of info this thread is now dead.

No, the calipers are installed correctly. In fact i think this set can only be installed one way
 
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