99 Explorer 5.0 rebuild follow-up question (hard to turn by hand)

[skrit]

Cut from a previous post of mine....

"Was going to verify TDC so I can check my lash but the piston stops I bought won't reach nor will my compression tester. Is there an adapter to reach down into the spark plug hole? Also, now that the engine is buttoned back up, it's very hard to turn by hand using a socket on the crank bolt. When I was about to start the rebuild, I could turn by hand quite easily. to observe the internals operating. I've read this is normal for a fresh rebuild - what do ya'll think? (All new bearings and rings, new cylinder hone, reused pistons, arms, crank, cam. Had heads refreshed using existing parts except new valve seals and valves/valve ports lapped.)"

So I pulled the oil pan and loosened the main and rod caps, recoated with WD40 and it's still hard to turn by hand (140-150ft-lb). Nothing is binding. Heads are still on and plugs are out. I did not loosen the rocker arms but some are so loose between strokes that I can turn the rocker arm nut with my fingers - which is why I wanted to verify I did the lash correctly before really buttoning it up with accessories and valve covers. Dang it - now I'm going to have to recoat everything with assembly lube since I've been doing all this .

Does anyone see anything glaring that would cause this? I did not plasti-gauge but have just ordered a kit to verify tolerances. Even so, loosening the bolts should have told me if there was a bearing clearance issue by making it spin easier. Piston rings are not oversized, cylinders are stock, with just a hone job and taper/roundness check. Piston ring gaps are within tolerance.

On another note, by observing the location of cylinder 1 - I can say that the timing marks on my factory balancer are correct for TDC.

 

[DirtDonk]

Did you loosen the rod bolts as well? Looks like you did from one picture, but wanted to be sure.
You’re absolutely sure all the ring gaps are correct?
The last thing for the block I can think of is, are you sure that the connecting rods are oriented correctly?

Another simple thing I might try at this point, considering it’s this far apart, would be to disconnect the timing chain and try again.
That would make sure that it’s not the cam that’s jammed up inside.
I don’t actually see the cam doing this, but at least it’s one more thing to eliminate.

 

[Broncobowsher]

The loose rod caps really bother me. WD40 is not correct to prelube the bottom end. That is what I use to clean the crank, before install. But not to lube it. Engine assembly lube. Any parts store will have some. Somewhere between a thin grease and a thick oil.

150 ft-lb to turn over the engine without plugs, something is wrong.
I'm thinking rods may be backwards. There is a chamfer on the rods and the bearing is slightly offset to give clearance to the fillet radius where the rod meets the journal.
Easy check. The rods should have a little play and slide across the journal a little bit. There is a rod to rod clearance, check with a feeler gauge. You should be able to slide them together and slide them apart to measure the clearance.
The next is crankshaft endplay. Have you measured that yet? Make sure you can more the crank fore and aft to get that measurment,

Did you measure ring gaps before installing the rings? Put the ring in the bore, square it up to the deck, measure the gap? You might have file fit rings that were never file fitted and too tight.

 

[skrit]

The loose rod caps really bother me. WD40 is not correct to prelube the bottom end. That is what I use to clean the crank, before install. But not to lube it. Engine assembly lube. Any parts store will have some. Somewhere between a thin grease and a thick oil.

150 ft-lb to turn over the engine without plugs, something is wrong.
I'm thinking rods may be backwards. There is a chamfer on the rods and the bearing is slightly offset to give clearance to the fillet radius where the rod meets the journal.
Easy check. The rods should have a little play and slide across the journal a little bit. There is a rod to rod clearance, check with a feeler gauge. You should be able to slide them together and slide them apart to measure the clearance.
The next is crankshaft endplay. Have you measured that yet? Make sure you can more the crank fore and aft to get that measurment,

Did you measure ring gaps before installing the rings? Put the ring in the bore, square it up to the deck, measure the gap? You might have file fit rings that were never file fitted and too tight.

When I assembled the engine - I used moly assembly lube on every journals and Ultraslick on the bearing surfaces. I'm only misting with WD/40 and PB Blaster to keep the rust out. Unfortunately it washed away the lube on my cam so I'll redo that.

I remeasured the torque to turn after a coat of PB blaster in the cylinders and it's actually 110 lb-ft - not 150. It was 150 when I first tried to turn it after it's been sitting for a few weeks. The cylinders are honed with a medium cross hatch so I expect some resistance until the rings get set when I fire it up and break it in. I'm doing everything I can to avoid taking the heads off right now - don't want to mess up my new head/intake gaskets and RTV seal.

Rods aren't backwards to by knowledge. I never took the rods off the original pistons and the dot on the face of the piston is facing toward the front of the engine. The rod caps all have .010-.008 clearance between them and they move slightly side to side. The rod caps are installed with the bearing tang facing the direction of the crank such that the larger chamfered part is facing the crank as pictured below.

Ring gaps were .020ish when seated in the cylinder from my memory and were consistent.

Crankshaft was set on the #3 thrust bearing using some solid THWACKS of a mallet front and back. I would say it's less than .008 end play but I don't have a dial indicator. There is a tiny bit of play using a prybar with the main caps torqued down.

I'm starting to think I just built a tight engine with very little slop and nothing is wrong. I'll take the timing chain off next per @DirtDonk and see what happens - I need to re-moly the camshaft anyway.

BTW, the camshaft is original and bearings were not replaced due to the PITA they are. They looked fine with no grooves, scoring or unusual wear.

 

[73azbronco]

pull crank and piston rod caps off, dry, and clean each bearing and seat, then plasti gauge each bearing by itself, ie, do one, get the number, undo it, then next one, UNderside of bearings should be dry.

wd40 never used anywhere. Use fogging oil to protect cylinder walls, components other than bearings once assembled. wd40 will actually "stick" metal parts together, very low viscosity

Thrust bearing, you do use a pry bar, not a hammer... Dial indicator from ebay or somewhere... Harbor freight has a $16 indicator, trouble will be mounting it. Just use some form of clamps. Or, feeler gauge one way then other.

 

[DirtDonk]

So just for future reference and while we’re discussing this, what do you all feel is a good torque for turning the engine over?
Seems to me, that with all the pistons and rods installed but the main bearing caps left loose, it shouldn’t be more than about 40 pounds.
Probably even less if the cylinder walls were freshly lubricated.

Maybe I’m thinking more of a four, or six cylinder engine. Rather than a V-8. But it just doesn’t seem to me like I remember any engine I’ve worked on being overly hard to turn.
Even once it’s all bolted together, with the spark plugs removed, I would think it would be under 75 pounds. Much less!
Or maybe it’s just big wrenches I’ve used and the fact that when I was younger, I had stronger arms!

 

[skrit]

OK today I'm going to start disassembling and start over. I just removed all the rocker arms and now it's 85-90lbs to turn.

 

[skrit]

I removed only 1 head to verify ring gap. I'm at .019 and .020 throughout the cylinder which is around what I thought it was when I assembled. Hopefully I don't need to replace my brand new head gasket now. . I really appreciate everyone's input thus far but I honestly don't think I have an issue and I'm not going to take anything else apart. I remember the camshaft turning smoothly by hand when I assembled and the crank turning smoothly without the pistons in. Yeah it's a little tight probably from the cylinder hone. I followed several instructional videos very closely and checked tolerances (other than plastigauge which I will do today when the kit comes in). But I have a feeling that will be within spec too. There is nothing obviously out of spec.

When it blows up when I finally getting around to firing it up - I'll let everyone know so you can all tell me "I told you so!"

 

[73azbronco]

doing the google thing, im reading about 55ft lbs to get a long block to start rotating and 15-20 to keep it moving, using an ibeam tq wrench. 150 is a bit to much.

Head gaskets seal by crushing with pressure of torque. Start over with new ones.

 

[73azbronco]

So just for future reference and while we’re discussing this, what do you all feel is a good torque for turning the engine over?
Seems to me, that with all the pistons and rods installed but the main bearing caps left loose, it shouldn’t be more than about 40 pounds.
Probably even less if the cylinder walls were freshly lubricated.

Maybe I’m thinking more of a four, or six cylinder engine. Rather than a V-8. But it just doesn’t seem to me like I remember any engine I’ve worked on being overly hard to turn.
Even once it’s all bolted together, with the spark plugs removed, I would think it would be under 75 pounds. Much less!
Or maybe it’s just big wrenches I’ve used and the fact that when I was younger, I had stronger arms!

actually size of engine is not an issue, 400 plus cubes still only using 25 lbs of force to rotate.

 

[73azbronco]

I removed only 1 head to verify ring gap. I'm at .019 and .020 throughout the cylinder which is around what I thought it was when I assembled. Hopefully I don't need to replace my brand new head gasket now. . I really appreciate everyone's input thus far but I honestly don't think I have an issue and I'm not going to take anything else apart. I remember the camshaft turning smoothly by hand when I assembled and the crank turning smoothly without the pistons in. Yeah it's a little tight probably from the cylinder hone. I followed several instructional videos very closely and checked tolerances (other than plastigauge which I will do today when the kit comes in). But I have a feeling that will be within spec too. There is nothing obviously out of spec.

When it blows up when I finally getting around to firing it up - I'll let everyone know so you can all tell me "I told you so!"

so just honed, original pistons or new?

 

[Timmy390]

I would plati gauge the rod bearing clearances. I would also lube the he'll out of everything. The wd40 and PB Blaster use is more of a cleaner than a lube

Tim