Another Bronco Lean Question

[DirtDonk]

Hey daron, welcome!
But three inches! That's a lot even for a Bronco. Is it one corner, or evenly on one side? Where are you measuring?

What about the body mounts? Are they all 3/4" tall, or are any of them compressed?

Paul

 

[daron.pisciotta]

Hey daron, welcome!
But three inches! That's a lot even for a Bronco. Is it one corner, or evenly on one side? Where are you measuring?

What about the body mounts? Are they all 3/4" tall, or are any of them compressed?

Paul

So when I say 3" its only on the passenger side front at this point. I am in the process of completing the entire suspension lift and haven't yet put the back leaf springs on. When I say 3" i mean the difference between the drivers side radius are and the passenger side radius arm. The entire front diff is disconnected and I am trying to connect the radius arms with it unattached.

 

[daron.pisciotta]

So when I say 3" its only on the passenger side front at this point. I am in the process of completing the entire suspension lift and haven't yet put the back leaf springs on. When I say 3" i mean the difference between the drivers side radius are and the passenger side radius arm. The entire front diff is disconnected and I am trying to connect the radius arms with it unattached.

Sorry Body mounts I am not sure of at this point I need to check tomorrow morning.

 

[nvrstuk]

3"??? Wow, I think that's the most I've ever hear of...

Are you 100% sure you have the C bushings oriented correctly...3"?...

THIS is the most important question...was it level before you did the work? IF so, then it's something you did or bought. If it wasn't level before then you aren't likely to solve the problem with what you're doing...

Are the radius arm ends absolutely level with the caps torqued down to spec on a LEVEL concrete pad?

Over the decades I've had literally dozens of people call this horse-hockey fix and then literally a hundred people say...yeah, this is THE fix.

Good luck, keep us posted.... oh, I just re-read your post...don't worry about a thing until ALL your suspension is bolted up AND it's sitting on the ground...

 

[price209]

Sounds to me like he hasnt even put the springs on and he has 3" gap on his radius arms being level with the new bushings installed. Which would likely give him some lean, but definitely not 3" of actual body lean.

Are you 100% sure the ground is level in your work space? Are your tires the same size with similar tread left. If the tires are off, and the axel is lifted of the ground on jacks, is your axel sitting level in the jacks?

 

[bronconut73]

Fighting this lean for 35 years....

 

[DirtDonk]

So when I say 3" its only on the passenger side front at this point.

I am in the process of completing the entire suspension lift and haven't yet put the back leaf springs on.

When I say 3" i mean the difference between the drivers side radius are and the passenger side radius arm.

Ok, so let's call this a "misalignment" or a "discrepancy" then, because it's not a "lean" until it's all put together and the body is leaning.
But since you're not talking about the whole Bronco at this point, you don't need to worry about the body mounts being part of the equation yet either.

When it comes down to the final setup though, don't go by visual cues, or even measurements if they involve the body unless the body mounts are equal height all the way around.

The entire front diff is disconnected and I am trying to connect the radius arms with it unattached.

So you are basically doing the initial setup while watching the radius arm tips vs the ground. With 3" you have an issue. Either a bushing is in wrong, as suggested (and this does happen a LOT and to a LOT of us still), or your axle tubes have spun, or your front end was put together incorrectly from the factory.
All of the above are possibilities. And if more than one, then you're dealing with stacked-tolerances and won't be able to get it aligned the normal ways.

So first, what year is your Bronco, and more importantly, what model front diff? If it's a Dana 30 from an earlier model, then the spun tube(s) are a distinct possibility.
The "cure" for this is to quadruple check that the C-bushings are installed correctly, all four oriented to their proper positions to tilt the differential back and down, and then literally stand on the one of the radius arms and try to spin the tube in the center section.

Which one is the "correct arm" however depends on your axle. Yes, you must stand on the high-side obviously or it won't work, but depending on which one benefits you the most, you may have to flip the assembly over so you can stand on the opposite arm to accomplish your goal.
Either way will get you level, but which one is best depends on your pinion angle.

Once both arms are level, you need to tack weld the tubes in place. Just a tack, so that if you find you need to change alignment later to correct for one thing or another, you still can.
Then, once the rig is on the road and dialed in, you can fully weld the tubes.

All this of course, only if the tubes are the problem. But it's a very good possibility when you're that far off.

Paul

 

[daron.pisciotta]

So Here are a few incidentals...

The bronco was level when I started.

The group is level. The indie of my garage.
1973 Bronco
Dana 44

I am absolutely sure the C Bushings are installed correctly (I watched the Wild Horses video numerous times). BUT I will check for sure again (it may be me)

The front axle is completely off the Bronco so I have the front axle on jack stands and attached the the radius arms onto the front axle and as they are angled towards the cement, one side touches and one side is up at least 3"

I am head out again this morning. I completely took everything apart to start fresh this morning. See the attached picture. The passenger side is off the cement the thickness of the block (2 1/2") which is the best I could get it. I hope I added that correctly.

We will talk again... Thanks all for the help

/Users/dpisciotta/Desktop/Screen Shot 2018-12-02 at 12.30.51 PM.png

 

[nvrstuk]

daron... you said you have followed the Bronco Lean article or video a couple times.

Did you get different results any of those times? In other words, did one of the 2 radius arms set off the block 1"?, 1/2"? 2" any of the times you did it OR did each time you followed the Bronco lean article or video you ended up with the 2 1/2" you now have?

I think this is important because if you didn't get any change then I feel you need to try the video again. I find it hard to get the same results each time you go through the torque sequence...

 

[bronkenn]

Just want to mention one thing that I'm sure you know but the radius arm caps are machined specifically to each arm. Could be a problem. Ken

 

[DirtDonk]

As long as you cleaned the mounting pads/wedges and the insides of the radius arm caps, and have lubricated the bushings to allow them to slide around as you're torquing down the cap bolts, then what I said before about the angles being off on the axle itself are more likely.
This would be either from incorrect angling of them during initial welding, or of the axle tube(s) actually having slipped.

Paul

 

[daron.pisciotta]

Alright, an update to my lean problem. I can absolutely confirm I was doing it correct because after speaking with a 4x4 mechanic friend who came to the house and looked at it himself, the front end passenger side tub is spun! It appears about 3 degrees. We confirmed this also because the previous owner add a block under the REAR Driver side axle to crudely level it all up.

So the axle is now completely off the truck and I am trying to figure out what my options are to fix it or replace.

Any ideas or recommendations are accepted.
Thanks Everyone again for the input.
Daron

 

[nvrstuk]

Glad you figured it out...

-rotate that axle tube to the orginal OE location and weld it

-cut the other side's knuckle off and correct the castor for the front while you are this far into it and obviously reweld the twisted off to match (BEST idea)

-buy a different axle (no guarantee that it's any better)

I'd rotate the knuckle on the other side and fix the castor issue while you can

 

[pennyduke]

How do you determine that an Axle Tube has spun. I have an inch and a half lean on the drivers side rear of my bronco. My bronco came with new bushings and I did verify that they are installed correctly as far as top and bottom being in the right place. My next step was to remove the axle and see if the radius arms are level.

 

[DirtDonk]

Each case might be different.
In some cases you can look in the holes at the outer edges of the cast centers and see if the tube has spun, leaving a little clean half-circle or some clue like that.
But it might not just be tubes spinning in the center. It could also be that the radius arm pads were welded on crooked at the Spicer factory.
But other than the first visual clue, I'm not sure how you'd determine one has spun, vs all the other things that can cause a lean.

In your case pennyduke, have you already checked your body bushings so that you know all the lean is in the suspension, and not some of it from the body? Are you measuring your lean at the suspension, or up at one of the body lines?
I always recommend using suspension measurements since the body can be inconsistent.

Bottom line though, is if the lean is in the radius arms, it doesn't matter if it's from the tube rotated, crooked pads, or just C-bushings that are no cooperating. You still have to remove the axle assembly from the vehicle and let the tips of the arms set on the flat ground so you can measure and correct the offset through one method or another.
Rotating the tubes would be the next choice, after re-orienting the bushings proves unfruitful.

Paul

 

[pennyduke]

The body bushings are also new. 1 inch body lift. I did measure to a body line in the rear on both sides. I'm not sure how to measure the suspension for a Lean.

 

[DirtDonk]

The body line is the best point of reference for the rear when you just need a quick eyeball type measurement. But the best overall is to measure the space between the top of the axle tube and the bottom of the frame rails in each corner.

You don't need to compare too accurately from front to back, as that's mostly subjective on how it looks. But side to side comparisons of that dimension will give you an idea of how much it's leaning from side to side.
And in spite of slight discrepancies, is probably the most accurate point.

Stock height is generally considered to be 7" in front and 6" (edited numbers) in the rear, so you can also compare your measurements to those to see where your current lift height (if any) sits.
But what none of these are guaranteed to tell you is whether the lean is caused by inconsistent springs, the C-bushings being skewed a bit, or by some problem with the frame and/or axles from either damage, or manufacture.
But it will at least get you one step closer to a solution.

Paul

 

[mustanggarage]

man I am in a similar position here. I am trying to get the c bushings installed. I have the body off the frame, and I put everything together and it was about an 1 1/2 higher on the passenger side. I pulled everything apart. I checked the orientation of the bushings they are correct. I lubed them again. and I am trying to tighten the bushing caps. but no matter how I try I can't get the radius arms to both touch the floor when they are tight. I don't know what else to try. I have loosened and tightened them a hundred times. I have bounced the low hanging one on a 4x4 and stood on the high side. no matter what when I get them tight they are the same the passenger side is up about an inch off the floor. what am I doing wrong?

 

[langester]

Have you set them on top of each other to verify they are both match? I have had to bend a few back into shape so they match, not sure if it was from an accident or if someone bent them previously.

 

[mustanggarage]

Have you set them on top of each other to verify they are both match? I have had to bend a few back into shape so they match, not sure if it was from an accident or if someone bent them previously.

no I haven't done that yet. that would be just my luck lol. oh well here's to tearing it all apart again. it is no wonder it takes so long to do one of these frame off restorations. you end up tearing things apart and reassembling them so many times.