another loose steerting thread....sorry

[lsukevinc]

I hate to start another thread that has been beat to death, but I have a few questions on what is going on with my bronco. I have a 76 bronco with a 3.5” Duff suspension lift and 2” body lift. Like most broncos this age, once you reach 40 MPH, the bronco wonders all over the read. The previous owner said the tie rod ends were up graded to that of a F-150. The tie rods and seems to be tight and in good shape as well. The ball joints are were replaced recently and are still appear shinny and in good shape. The steering wheel has minimal play in it while the bronco is not running, so I think my steering box and steering shaft is in decent shape. I jumped on the front bumper and the steering wheel did not move. It has the stock pitman arm and the track bar has been lowered with a welded on bracket that seemed to be in good shape as well. The track bar and the radius arm are almost perfectly parallel, only 1 degree apart according to my dial gauge. I checked the alignment with tape and a tape measure and it was off a little, I will set the front to have a slight toe in.



I have a magnetic dial gauge and I took a few readings. I know this gauge will not be perfect, but the driver’s side show maybe 3 degrees caster and the passenger side showed 0 degrees caster. I assume I will need new c bushings? I guess the only way to find out for sure is to bring it to an alignment shop and have the bronco’s measurements checked out. Finally, the tires may be an issue as well. The tires are 32” Mickey Thompson MTZ’s and they only have 25 psi in the front. Look at the picture I included, does it appear they are cupped really bad? Could the tire cause part of the problem I am having?

Any suggestions are realty appreciated.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y435/lsukevinclsukevinc/IMG_1917_zps145c08b2.jpg

 

[Timmy390]

It has the stock pitman arm and the track bar has been lowered with a welded on bracket that seemed to be in good shape as well.

If you have a drop T bar bracket you need to also use a drop P arm. Moving one or the other can cause issues. Need to move both or keep both stock.

I run both drops on my rig with an adjustable T bar and drag link.

Tim

 

[lsukevinc]

If you have a drop T bar bracket you need to also use a drop P arm. Moving one or the other can cause issues. Need to move both or keep both stock.

I run both drops on my rig with an adjustable T bar and drag link.

Tim

I agree, but the bars are perfectly parallel as show in the picture.

 

[BRONCROB]

Have you tried different air pressure or rotating your tire wirh correct pressure?That and too little caster will cause it to drift back and forth or be darty.

 

[lsukevinc]

Have you tried different air pressure or rotating your tire wirh correct pressure?That and too little caster will cause it to drift back and forth or be darty.

no, that is my project for tonight. I will rotate the tires and inflate to 28 psi. The tires have a weird "cup", but it couls be to low air pressure.

 

[BRONCROB]

no, that is my project for tonight. I will rotate the tires and inflate to 28 psi. The tires have a weird "cup", but it couls be to low air pressure.

Yeah that bulge will cause trouble.Are those bias tires?

 

[surfer-b]

You can try all that but I would say you are gonna have to rotate the yokes to get ~ 8* pos caster, this is the best way to get one of these Broncos to drive the way it should if it doesn't drive good in the current condition. If all of these are good...... steering box, bushings, ball joints, tie rod, drag link, trac bar, wheel bearings and tires, and its still not driving right then its time to rotate the yokes. Like stated above tires will make a vehicle do some crazy things, if those are bi plys, and they do look like it, that may well be a lot of the front end probs.

 

[lsukevinc]

the tires are mickey Thompson Baja belted, not sure if they are bias or not. But from what I can find on the web, they have two fiberglass bands that allow you to run really low air pressure. I don't believe they are made anymore.

 

[75MIKE]

Have you laid under the front end while someone turns the steering wheel back and forth?
A really good way to see things that may be loose, especially track bar Bushings. They kind of sneak up every couple years.

 

[spap]

I don't think you mentioned it it have you checked your front bearings?
That will def cause some wander. Jack up the front tires and see if the is any play top to bottom

 

[driveshafter]

mtomson tires

i had som mtomson baha belts on my rig once they look realy cool but on the road they handled realy bad a front end allingment helped also a front stablizer shock and a lowerd pitman arm fixed it along with bushings

 

[Pa PITT]

.. I SAY your issue is tires. If you got a buddy with a ford & good tires. Put 2 street thread tires on the front & see how it drives.
.. I Also have & old 1980 Bronco with tire like you have there.. It hated that thread. But I was Buddys with a guy that owned a tire shop .. He put several set's of different tires on the front of my old Bronco .My Bronco hated that thread but was happy with say the thread design from the BF Goodrich .
... & YOU also know that all those other thing can cause issues too .. But I'd try to borrow a set of front tires & take um for a spin.

 

[DirtDonk]

...The previous owner said the tie rod ends were up graded to that of a F-150. The tie rods and seems to be tight and in good shape as well.

Maybe upgraded in size to something more in line with an F150 set, but definitely not standard stuff. Looks like a typical aftermarket setup like most of us sell.
One thing I see that you could do would be to loosen both adjusters and rotated the centerlink down/forward slightly so that the angle of the tie-rod matches what the factory did more accurately. In other words, rotate it so that the area where the draglink mounts to it is facing more of a 45° angle forward than the almost vertical angle it is now.
You can do this while you're changing your toe-in settings to save some trouble.
What is your toe-in setting now? Typically 1/8" to 1/4" works on EB's, with 3/16" seeming to be a sweet spot for many.

The steering wheel has minimal play in it while the bronco is not running, so I think my steering box and steering shaft is in decent shape.

What steering box is installed? Are you familiar with the different ones? Most likely it's a stock '76, but still worth verifying for future reference.

I jumped on the front bumper and the steering wheel did not move.

Not a bad thing to check, but not as telling or accurate with power steering sometimes. The leverage just isn't always there to show bump-steer right up front.
Even though the other test is not for bumpsteer as much as general condition, do the test that was mentioned already where a helper saws the wheel back and forth a few inches each way continually while you watch for any freeplay that shouldn't be there. Which is pretty much ANY freeplay!

It has the stock pitman arm and the track bar has been lowered with a welded on bracket that seemed to be in good shape as well.

As was said, this is VERY unusual. As you pointed out though, the bars are pretty parallel, so once again the old "every Bronco is different" rears it's ugly head.
Are you certain this is a stock '76 frame? I wonder if it's an early build by any chance? A '76 frame would already have had a much deeper trackbar bracket than earlier models and when your old "Y" linkage was changed out for the "T" linkage you have now, you usually need the pitman arm and not the bracket to make the bars parallel. The exact opposite of what you've got. I'm very curious to see some more details.
Can you shoot a couple of pics of the steering box area from the front corner, and include an angle so we can see the draglink, pitman arm and trackbar mounts? Just curious to see how it's laid out.
If you do rotate the tie-rod like I suggested, this act will change your draglink angle slightly. Might make it better, might make it worse. But it's still the appropriate thing to do.

The track bar and the radius arm are almost perfectly parallel, only 1 degree apart according to my dial gauge.

More important than the measured angle of the bars themselves (which varies with bends) is the location of their pivot points. So "parallel" in this case is when the height difference between tie-rod and trackbar lower pivot and their upper pivots is the same.
Radius arms are the two lateral control arms between the front axle and frame. The ones with the C-bushings in their caps.

I checked the alignment with tape and a tape measure and it was off a little, I will set the front to have a slight toe in.

What is it now? This alone can make a HUGE difference actually. So even though I'm with those that say your tires are at least partially at fault, incorrect toe-in can make it really wander.

I have a magnetic dial gauge and I took a few readings. I know this gauge will not be perfect, but the driver’s side show maybe 3 degrees caster and the passenger side showed 0 degrees caster. I assume I will need new c bushings?

Depends on what the C-bushings are now. If they're already the 6.5° that they offered, then the only increase is to 7, which is only half a degree and not worth the effort.
Be nice to know what's in there now of course, but 4 degrees would have been typical for a 3" lift. And the only way to do that is to take them out anyway, so at that point you might as well put new ones in anyway. Even though most '76 EB's had more caster than earlier ones, just go to the max no matter what.

I guess the only way to find out for sure is to bring it to an alignment shop and have the bronco’s measurements checked out.

Definitely. And the way you measured is likely not very consistent anyway. I don't know if anyone has ever done that successfully, but you can be the first! If your measurements are close to actual alignment rack results, you've got a good comparison point for the future.
Make sure to let us know what you test out at.

Finally, the tires may be an issue as well. The tires are 32” Mickey Thompson MTZ’s and they only have 25 psi in the front. Look at the picture I included, does it appear they are cupped really bad? Could the tire cause part of the problem I am having?

Absolutely. Not only can any tire cause this issue, but your type of tire is notorious for either causing, or at least aggravating this kind of thing. Not only that, but your tires are probably pretty old, and yes, they do look a bit worn too.
I think you'll be shocked at how it changes with a different set of rollers on there. But do the other things first to give it the best bang for the buck, and get other things dialed in as well. After all, even with new tires, any of those other things can become gremlins to haunt your dreams!

Good luck.

Paul

 

[lsukevinc]

.. I SAY your issue is tires. If you got a buddy with a ford & good tires. Put 2 street thread tires on the front & see how it drives.
.. I Also have & old 1980 Bronco with tire like you have there.. It hated that thread. But I was Buddys with a guy that owned a tire shop .. He put several set's of different tires on the front of my old Bronco .My Bronco hated that thread but was happy with say the thread design from the BF Goodrich .
... & YOU also know that all those other thing can cause issues too .. But I'd try to borrow a set of front tires & take um for a spin.

Hopefully I can do this Saturday or Sunday, a guy down my street has a 73 on brand new 35" BFG's. Hopefully he will understand and let me swap our front tires for a quick test drive.

Last night it was able to get the toe in to about 1/4". The bearings and ball joints all seemed nice and tight.

I appreciate everyone's input and I do plan to throw in some 7 degree c bushings. I don't know if the ones I have installed are correct. Once I take everything down to inspect, I might as well change them out. Again, thanks for your help and I will post pictures and results.

 

[PaveBronco]

As usual anything the PO did is suspect…you said all was tight but like some have mentioned have you got underneath while someone moves (wiggles) the steering wheel LT and RT. This will show play. Another thought is the PO upgraded F150 tie rod ends, that’s not a direct bolt on. The F150 rod ends are bigger, so the steering knuckles need to be reamed out….with a tapered ream…opportunity for a screwup…unless the whole knuckles were swapped out, but yours look Bronco to me.

 

[lsukevinc]

I was able to get my friend to agree to let me use this wheels and tires off of his 73 to see if his new tires make a difference. We plan to do this Sunday afternoon and I will post the results. Also, the local tire shop said he would do a alignment check for $25 and print out the results.

here is a picture of my steering box and pitman arm. It looks to be correct, but someone correct me if I am wrong. The trackbar bracket seems to be about 7.5" long. It may be factory, but I originally thought it was aftermarket.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y435/lsukevinclsukevinc/IMG_1935_zpsce2dc8ff.jpg

I called Jeff's Bronco Grave yard because this picture of a steering setup is very similar o what is installed on my bronco. The guy I spoke to said you do not have to ream the knuckles, but you do have to ream the pitman arm.

 

[DirtDonk]

Looks to be a stock pitman arm and '76/'77 style trackbar mount. All factory, no drops.

Correct on most vendor's linkages I would think. We size the rod ends correct for whatever year the knuckles and pitman arm are, as stated by the customer. Lots of things get swapped though, so there is the occasional glitch in fitting things the first time.

If it was truly an "F150" tie rod setup, then yes, all the tapers are larger than any EB stuff, so reaming would be needed. Your '76 tapers are smaller even than the typical '67-'75 size, so if some stock T-style stuff was used, you'd also probably need to ream. But if ordered correctly for the year, it should have fit right out of the box.

In your case, you would "normally" benefit greatly from a dropped pitman arm only.
If you notice from the pictures, your lower trackbar pivot is above the pivot point of the lower draglink. In the new pics, your upper trackbar pivot is slightly below the pivot point of the upper draglink end.
I think a dropped pitman arm is in order no matter what. How much drop might depend on just how much misalignment is there. Most '66-'77 dropped arms have a very pronounced drop of almost 3"(http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/drop_pitman_6675yr - http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Drop_Pitman_Arm_7677yr). Where some, including our '78/79 arm has less drop (http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Drop_Pitman_Arm_7879yr) that might be even more appropriate to get the pivot points in alignment.
The only difference between the '66-'75 and the '76/'77 arms is the size of the tapered hole in the small end.

Draw an imaginary straightedge (or a real one with string perhaps?) between the upper and lower pivot centers of each bar and see what the exact offset is. That could help you decide which type of arm to utilize.
If you end up deciding a full-size arm is best, you "might" need a tapered shim (http://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Tapered_Sleeves_for_F150_Knuckles) to make up some of the difference in size. All depends on what size upper draglink end you have now.
I don't actually know for a fact that they would work in the pitman arms, as they're made for the tie-rod end to knuckle interface, but the sizes might be the same, or similar enough. And in a pinch, you could always match a new upper end to your new pitman arm. But theoretically you should be able to match the arm to your existing end, as long as the arm is the drop you need.
Yeah, a lot to think about, but it's important to your steering feel, so it's worth wasting a few brain cells on certainly.

Paul

 

[lsukevinc]

I went to the local tire shop and they said the oldest vehicle they could align was a 92. He would not even put it on the rack to see what the caster, camber, toe in was...nothing. So I'll wait on the alignment for now.

We jacked the front of my bronco up off of the ground to check everything, and everything checked out fine. The steering shaft, steering box, tie rod ends, ball joints, and bearing are all tight and have been replaced recently.

I was able to swap the two front tires with a friend of mine who has 35" BFG's that are less then a year old. The wondering decreased and I am thinking the tires were 90% of the problem. We put my two front tires on the front of his bronco and he took it for s spin around the block. He claims that the tires made his bronco drive erratically too. The only complaint both of us had with my bronco and his tires was it was almost too tight. As soon as you made any adjustment with the wheel, the bronco almost immediately moved according to your adjustment. If you let go of the wheel, it seemed to track straight, no wondering or pulling.

I agree with everyone that a dropped pitman arm is in need. Any suggestions to what could be causing the very sensitive steering response?

 

[BRONCROB]

If it's "too tight" darty you need to add some c bushings with more caster and cure that or get drop track brackets to do the same thing.

 

[lsukevinc]

If it's "too tight" darty you need to add some c bushings with more caster and cure that or get drop track brackets to do the same thing.

yea, I was planning on changing them out because I really think one side is installed incorrectly. I know most web sites recommend 4 degree bushings, but would it hurt to step up to the 7 degree? Any brands recommended over others?