Bad Alternator?

[86Horn_EB_77]

Got some pictures of the engine compartment? Specially, around the starter relay and alternator?

I am failing in technology today.., is there some trick to making google drive files available so they can be linked as images? I’ve changed the security to visible for everyone.
With a new relay and cleaned connections and a new positive battery cable, I’ve got charging voltage at the battery… a little over 14 at idle. More if I rev it.
Now the new problem is no start signal to the relay. I managed to pull the red black out of the ignition switch rat nest and then I had wires sparking when I tried to repair it.
So I pulled the switch outta the dash and I’m trying to rewire and clean it up.
I love wiring - will post pics is I can figure it out

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

Dirt Donk - you like that Stroppe York AC compressor? LOL!

 

[Oldtimer]

The RD/BK wire goes from ignition switch to starter relay, and nothing else.

The RD/GR and PK wires are connected to same contact on ignition switch.
PK wire is resitance wire to coil.
RD/GR wire feeds 12 volts (key ON position) to voltage regulator, with splices off to brake warning light (R/Y wire) and carburetor solenoid (BL wire).

YE wire is 12 volt source, spliced to BK/GN wire that goes thru ammeter loop, then bullet connector to BK wire that runs out to fusible link at starter relay.

RD wire is 12v to fuse panel, when key is in ON or ACC position.

What does YELLOW wire added to starter relay connect to?

And these GREEN and RED wires must be additions by PO?

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

he RD/BK wire goes from ignition switch to starter relay, and nothing else.

RD/BK was connected to the Red wire by the blue crimp connector - before I managed to pull it loose -probably while wrestling with the speedo cluster and trying to find the bullet connector in the black main power wire from the Alt

And these GREEN and RED wires must be additions by PO?

Solid green wire was connected to the Green/Red stripe wire (just twisted together!) - I have not traced the green to see where it goes. If the red/green is the alternator feed for "ignition on" power, I suspect it's been run to "other things" along the way - which probably explains why I had a large voltage drop at the alternator.

What does YELLOW wire added to starter relay connect to?

The yellow is a wire I added a few months ago - it runs to the "white" wire of the Ford Duraspark ignition box - yes, this is a 72 with a duraspark added on later... I think it's a sensor wire that tells the Duraspark to "do something different with the timing" when you're cranking? I replaced the original duraspark box - and ran a new wire as the old one was just disconnected and coiled up on the fire wall.

he RD/GR and PK wires are connected to same contact on ignition switch.
PK wire is resitance wire to coil.
RD/GR wire feeds 12 volts (key ON position) to voltage regulator, with splices off to brake warning light (R/Y wire) and carburetor solenoid (BL wire).

Do I still need a resistance wire to the coil with a duraspark ignition - or does that coil just run at 12V all the time?
I will need to trace out the brake warning light wiring and the carb solenoid wire. I know this thing still has a heated choke - but not sure if it's convection heat or a 12V heating coil. Pretty sure any carb solenoid is long gone - all the emissions stuff is deleted - but still kinda there...


As mentioned before - this thing has a (dealer installed) under dash AC, fog lights, a winch, a CB, and an AM/FM radio that were added later - the wiring is a mess. CB, AM/FM, fog lights and winch are long gone - but the wiring taps remain...

THANK YOU FOR THE HELP !!!

 

[Oldtimer]

I would change all the ADDED crimp connectors over to soldered connections with heat shrink insulation.
Vintage crimp connectors arr notorious for having high resistance and creating voltage issues.

I would say yes on resitance wire, but that is based on factory coil requirements.

Yellow wire you added is what I connected to white wire on DSII module (#5 in below schematic) when I converted my 68 to DSII. I also connected it at starter relay, not at ignition switch as shown below.

How does your DSII module get power from the ignition switch?

A picture of DSII control module showing wire connections & colors may help.


Below schematic shows connection, but wire colors may not agree with reality.

And since we have totally hijacked this alternator thread,
if your DSII module has black or green insulators, here are their schematics.

 

[DirtDonk]

Dirt Donk - you like that Stroppe York AC compressor? LOL!

Heck yeah! Your Bronco is worth twice as much with that thing on it! haha...
Should go twice as fast and work twice as well too.

Too bad for the wire conditions and previous hacks though. The PO must've had a field day/year with that stuff.
At least you are trying to fix it, rather than hack what Ford paid a lot of money to accomplish.

Thanks for the pics. Adds a huge amount of info! Hope nobody minds hijacking the original thread for finding a solution to your issue. If it gets too muddied, maybe we should start a fresh one. But for now, we'll keep it going here.
I second the question of what the Yellow wire is doing. Is it yet another splice from the ignition switch's Red w/blue wire (it's not black stripe, but a faded-out blue) to the starter relay?
Maybe the old Red w/blue wire on the "S" terminal is busted somewhere, and they ran a new one? Or maybe it's a jumper to keep the ignition control module working? Or something else altogether...
If yours was a '73 or newer, it would have a jumper wire behind the engine in the NSS circuit that can fail and cause your no-signal issue to the relay. But yours is a '68, so would not have that particular section.
The original fusible link wire (Black wire there on the battery side of the starter relay) looks a little worse for the wear. Very much looking like it's almost overheated several times in it's life. It also looks smaller than normal. I wonder... Maybe follow it along to the nearest connector, and see what the rest of it looks like.

The back of the ignition switch is definitely muddled about. I haven't read all your responses to Oldtimer yet. I'll go back and do that now to see what else pops up.

Paul

 

[DirtDonk]

What color is the "grommet" (wire strain relief) on the Dura Spark modulator? Yes, it's an "ICM" in modern speak, but Ford originally called them "modulators" back in the day, so I thought I'd throw that in the mix for some historical reference.
Yes, some of them did a timing-retard when they received the START signal from the ignition switch.

Yes, your ignition coil very likely still needs a resistor wire. It does depend on the coil's resistance, but if it's a stock coil, it needs the resistor. And with Dura Spark, it's rarely a bad idea to use one, because the ignition module can get overheated from a 12v coil. The module itself usually gets the full 12v, but even one of them got a resistor I think. Depends on the color of the grommet.

The Red w/green is the ignition coil's resistor wire. It's pinkish-brownish when it's a resistor, but over the years the wire color for the first few inches after the key is still Red w/green. Some years the pinkish wire color went all the way to the ignition coil. ONly turning back to Red w/green in the engine compartment.
The Green w/red wire is for the alternator regulator. Sometimes an extra one was for power to the ignition module, but most times it was supposed to be Red w/green.

Not sure what the Red wire is on the back stud of the ignition switch. That's for the ACC power accessories, and would often be just a Black w/green stripe wire to the fuse panel and to the gauge voltage regulator. I've seen Broncos with the extra wire on the center stud, but never paid enough attention to it. So might be original to your '68, or might be added on. Probably original.

For the long term, you should protect your starter cable between the starter relay and starter. See where it passes between the A/C line and the wheel well sheet metal? It's close enough that over time you might see wear and tear on the outer jacket. Best to put something there. Maybe shrink tubing for a clean look, but better yet some split-loom covering, OR a bit of 3/8" rubber hose split down the length and hooked around the cable. Just to keep the sheet metal from wearing through and someday letting the smoke and fire out of the wire!

Paul

 

[Oldtimer]

The wiring in this 72 is VERY original (read that as old and crispy) . . .

Paul,
The OP had a 68 Bronco.
@86Horn_EB_77 has a 72 Bronco, despite all the numbers in is user ID.

 

[DirtDonk]

Ha ha ha! Thanks. I was trying not to get others confused, and I confused myself!

 

[DirtDonk]

And you know what. Because it’s a 72, if it’s a late 72 it might have the 73 wiring harness. Which means it might have the neutral safety wiring, and the jumper wire for the red with blue wire.

So, let’s find out a few more things about your bronco. Is the sixth digit of your VIN a P, a Q, or a later letter?
If you still have your door pillar certification decal, does it say what month your bronco was built in?
And I guess another picture is in order. Back of the intake manifold, wiring coming through the firewall and that area.

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

For the long term, you should protect your starter cable between the starter relay and starter. See where it passes between the A/C line and the wheel well sheet metal? It's close enough that over time you might see wear and tear on the outer jacket. Best to put something there. Maybe shrink tubing for a clean look, but better yet some split-loom covering, OR a bit of 3/8" rubber hose split down the length and hooked around the cable. Just to keep the sheet metal from wearing through and someday letting the smoke and fire out of the wire!

OK now I gotta go see what color the DSll grommets are… I’m sure I bought cheapest on Amazon or Rock Auto when I replaced it.
As for the starter cable, you’re looking at the NEW one…here what the old one looked like - I think he got all the use out of it, not sure how it wasn’t arcing- must have been perfectly routed… that’s bare ass wire kids!

 

[DirtDonk]

That's pretty ugly right there! You're right. Not sure how it kept going without throwing sparks now and then!

I figured he new one was at least pretty new, if not brand new. But figured now's the time to protect it from real life under the hood.
The original one had that nice (at least when it was new!) braided heat shielding around it. Helped to avoid scuffing to a point, and also helped due to it's proximity to the exhaust.
Looks from here like it spent at least some of it's life working really hard and overheating from a tired old starter, or a tired old engine, or too much ignition timing, or just plain old wire deterioration.
Bet it's much happier now that it has a new one!

Paul

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

And you know what. Because it’s a 72, if it’s a late 72 it might have the 73 wiring harness. Which means it might have the neutral safety wiring, and the jumper wire for the red with blue wire.

So, let’s find out a few more things about your bronco. Is the sixth digit of your VIN a P, a Q, or a later letter?
If you still have your door pillar certification decal, does it say what month your bronco was built in?
And I guess another picture is in order. Back of the intake manifold, wiring coming through the firewall and that area.

6th digit is an “N”, cert decal says Jan 1972. Pics attached of the firewall and there’s certainly some trans wiring there but… remember, this a 72 and it has a C4 that is “non factory installed”. I was joking about the Stroppe sticker on the York, but there one on the air cleaner and on the trailer hitch and…
I have no idea if this half cab had all the mods done at the North Texas Ford dealer or if it was shipped to Long Beach but there a really funky looking van? auto column in this truck. There’s also a mystery harness coming out of the column from what looks like a column neutral safety switch but there nothing in the column shift linkage that actuates it. There maybe a switch down on the trans - I need to look.
The good news is I connected the red/bk to the red wire and the truck cranked right up. The bad news is I found a melted brown wire in the harness behind the glove box and a melted red/blk ? Wire melted in that firewall harness by the accel linkage. I think both of these were? are? Coil power - and must have been bypassed or it wouldn’t be running. Gotta decide how deep I want to go - there are still things like the heater fan that don’t work… do I start chasing everything or just get it running? Need to remove the dead underdash ac to really get under the dash. I love wiring! Not.
Oh - there was also this weird underdash light with a bare bulb. And the DS has 6 wires with a blue grommet. Looks like there was a throttle solenoid but it’s gone. Also a black w/ blue stripe wire that disappears into the dash harness. Think it was wired to something on the ignition switch but came loose when I removed the switch.
But hey the ammeter, oil pressure and temp gauges seem to work!

 

[DirtDonk]

Melted brown wire under the dash is probably why the heater doesn’t work. Brown is heater power to the switch in the dash. Red and orange are low and high speed, respectively.

Steering column is from a pre-77 truck, or car. The C4 transmission got a trans mounted neutral safety switch early on by 73 or so (probably earlier), but the C6 kept the neutral safety switch on the column, in the trucks at least, until 77.

The black with blue striped wire is probably for the map light. Check for power on it with the headlight switch off, or twisted all the way until the dome light position clicks.

 

[DirtDonk]

The “unhooded” PRNDL indicator also indicates an early steering column. A 73 bronco would’ve had it, where a 74 would’ve had the hood. Not sure about the pickup and other cars.

The blue grommet box is good. Typical of installations because it was the latest version from Ford, and usually the go-to for installing after the fact.

 

[Oldtimer]

That is the facory map lamp.
My 68 had one, when I bought it in 73.

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

That is the facory map lamp.
My 68 had one, when I bought it in 73.

Mine was installed with some hokey Home Depot hardware - to the right of brake warning light. I suspect it was moved to make room for the AC. Can you point me to any pics that show where it should be mounted?
So I suspect that black/blue wire just plugs into the top of it?
I’m going to rip the AC out so I can get under the dash. The red AC power wires comes off the stud on the ignition switch. I need to find where the green red alternator energize wire should connect. Also need to replace these melted wires. Do you guys like this very safe AC power wire? No guesses on what this flat 4 steering column connector is for?
As always thanks for the help.

 

[86Horn_EB_77]

So…the melted brown wire was the ignition coil resistor bypass wire - from the start relay, thru the firewall, over to ignition switch area, and back thru the firewall to the 3 pin connector behind the left rocker cover, where it merges with the main coil power from the ignition key. Don’t know what would cause it to ground out, but it isn’t fused, so it cooked for a while… the good news is that it didn’t melt the insulation of the other wires it was bundled with…so hopefully I can just run a new wire and call it good.

 

[DirtDonk]

What a relief! Yes, should be fine if it didn’t hurt the other wires. And frankly, with a new and good working ignition, that wire isn’t always needed either. It’s good to have, for two reasons. But in a pinch you can run it without it.

The two reasons are, giving the usual extra jolt during the START process, but also making sure that some voltage gets there in case your ignition switch drops out when you turn it too far past the START position.
Which happens with a lot of these switches.