Blueprint 302 (365 HP) vs 347 (415 HP) vs 408 (450 HP)

[nvrstuk]

I know of a couple of guys who adapted the ignition part of it to run 4 cylinder Lycomings on their airplanes, using Ford EEC-IV EDIS modules. Precisely because of the legendary reliability. Kinda don't want the spark to stop when yer wheels are several thousand feet above the dirt...

... but think of the cool STORY if that happened??? Beats my underground cat rescue story from yesterday!!

 

[nvrstuk]

Be extremely careful with injectors, the chinese fake bosch are very hard to tell apart from OEM.

The Ford EDIS or Electronic Distributorless Ignition System is a computer-controlled ignition system developed by Ford that uses an ignition coil for each pair of cylinders (wasted spark). All the coils are placed in a single module called a coilpack.

You can also use a modified version of this which has 4 coils per "pack". Fairly small and easy to package since there are only 2 of these needed. I can attest that the spark travels over 3/4" to ground... small lightening bolt. I had to relocate the coils since I didn't want to rely on the boots to insulate.

 

[ssray]

... but think of the cool STORY if that happened??? Beats my underground cat rescue story from yesterday!!

You want an engine out story check this out! Long vid but you can watch the first part for the details and some graphics about getting from 27!000 ft at 400+ knots to a 120 knot landing when a turbine explodes.

 

[OX1]

Careful when looking at 351W blocks which are roller blocks from '94-6. They have been known to crack at the back of the block between the valley and the #2 cam bearing. ANY used block needs to have this area scrutinized for a crack after that cam brg is removed. Usually hard to get someone to agree to this b4 a sale but you need to have this done.

This apply to 87 blocks too?

 

[toddz69]

"Careful when looking at 351W blocks which are roller blocks from '94-6. They have been known to crack at the back of the block between the valley and the #2 cam bearing. ANY used block needs to have this area scrutinized for a crack after that cam brg is removed. Usually hard to get someone to agree to this b4 a sale but you need to have this done.

This apply to 87 blocks too?"

No - just the '94-'96 roller cam blocks.

Todd Z.

 

[nvrstuk]

Much better off getting a retro roller lifter kit then to go with The roller block.

Definitely go roller lifters. It makes a world of difference for your torque curve.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

So I've been trying to find a 351 block here in Houston without much luck. The best price I can find on a Dart block is close to $3100, including shipping. It's a Dart SHP Iron Block 4.0 Bore 9.5 DH # 31375135. If I go this way, what's the suggested components to go with and cost to build it to a 408 long block similar to the BP 408 @ 450 HP for $6700 + shipping?

My Plan is to top it off with the ProFlow EFI.

 

[Broncobowsher]

I don't think you can buy and build the Dart block to the price point of the Blueprint engine on a stock block.
You will end up with a nicer engine in the end, but it will cost more.

Eagle or Scat and get a complete rotating assembly. I would splurge and get forged parts for the Dart block. Next up, heads. Some good aftermarket aluminum ones. Add those to the block and you are getting close if not already over the Blueprint engine. I have not priced a bunch of this stuff to really know what current prices are. I am sure they have only gone up.

Now you still need a cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, pan, gasket set, pushrods, rockers, tins, etc. Not counting the intake and EFI that will work on either for the same price.

As I recall, the Dart block still needs a little machine work. What I remember is they are machined, but not final machined. The bores are bored, but not final honed for example. But you would have to check with Dart if that is still the case.

 

[Wrightracing]

I don't think you can buy and build the Dart block to the price point of the Blueprint engine on a stock block.
You will end up with a nicer engine in the end, but it will cost more.

Eagle or Scat and get a complete rotating assembly. I would splurge and get forged parts for the Dart block. Next up, heads. Some good aftermarket aluminum ones. Add those to the block and you are getting close if not already over the Blueprint engine. I have not priced a bunch of this stuff to really know what current prices are. I am sure they have only gone up.

Now you still need a cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, pan, gasket set, pushrods, rockers, tins, etc. Not counting the intake and EFI that will work on either for the same price.

As I recall, the Dart block still needs a little machine work. What I remember is they are machined, but not final machined. The bores are bored, but not final honed for example. But you would have to check with Dart if that is still the case.

A couple months ago I priced out a Dart Block, with a Eagle 408 kit, AFR 220cc Renegade heads and the rest of the parts to get to a ready to install long block. The price before the EFI stuff was around $9500. I already have most of the Holley Terminator X MPFI system, which was around $3500 with a Edlebrock Super Victor MPFI intake and Edlebrock 1000cfm throttle body. So I will end up with a $13000 motor if I go that direction.

I am learning more towards having my current 351w machined to go 408 and do everything the same as above on the Dart block. The price will end up closer to $9500 to $10k in the end.

I am not sure how much the machine work for the 1989 351w will cost. Does anyone in southern California know what is the going price to expect? You know California charges more for most things.

You could save money in some areas like heads, I want to run AFR Renegade 220cc heads to get the horse power in the mid 550hp around 3k to 4k rpm.
The heads alone are around $3k, so a set of used rebuilt GT 40 3 bar heads could save you $2k.

To save money I tend to get parts on holidays so I get nice discounts and that helped with all the Holley and Edlebrock stuff I already bought.



David

 

[Speedrdr]

Next up, heads. Some good aftermarket aluminum ones. Add those to the block and you are getting close if not already over the Blueprint engine. I have not priced a bunch of this stuff to really know what current prices are. I am sure they have only gone up.

Now you still need a cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, pan, gasket set, pushrods, rockers, tins, etc. Not counting the intake and EFI that will work on either for the same price.

Good breathing heads are indeed $$. I put a set (well, the machine shop did) of AFR heads on the 347 stroker and they were $1,800, as best I recall. Don’t remember how much all the other bits and pieces for the engine cost, but the final cost for the completed engine build was $6K. It doesn’t take long to get pricey.
Could have had a stock rebuild but found out it was a roller block (according to cast #s) and then I got silly.


Randy

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

A couple months ago I priced out a Dart Block, with a Eagle 408 kit, AFR 220cc Renegade heads and the rest of the parts to get to a ready to install long block. The price before the EFI stuff was around $9500. I already have most of the Holley Terminator X MPFI system, which was around $3500 with a Edlebrock Super Victor MPFI intake and Edlebrock 1000cfm throttle body. So I will end up with a $13000 motor if I go that direction.

I am learning more towards having my current 351w machined to go 408 and do everything the same as above on the Dart block. The price will end up closer to $9500 to $10k in the end.

I am not sure how much the machine work for the 1989 351w will cost. Does anyone in southern California know what is the going price to expect? You know California charges more for most things.

You could save money in some areas like heads, I want to run AFR Renegade 220cc heads to get the horse power in the mid 550hp around 3k to 4k rpm.
The heads alone are around $3k, so a set of used rebuilt GT 40 3 bar heads could save you $2k.

To save money I tend to get parts on holidays so I get nice discounts and that helped with all the Holley and Edlebrock stuff I already bought.



David

David, did you price the long block with a local shop or from a national engine shop? I'd like more info as the best price I've seen is around $11.5k from a national shop.

 

[Wrightracing]

David, did you price the long block with a local shop or from a national engine shop? I'd like more info as the best price I've seen is around $11.5k from a national shop.

The price I got for a Dart Block was $13k for parts alone. Keep in mind, that included tax and shipping along with getting high quality parts, like the $3k for heads, all top quality ARB race bolts and all the best accessories. Not the cheapest stuff, but the best prices I could find on the race quality high end parts with good reputations from race engine builders.

I will not be spending $50k like some of the professional Trophy truck teams do, but I still want something that is going to last a long time and put up with hard driving on occasion in the sand dunes.

I priced everything on the high side, because prices keep going up. 10 years ago, I could have got a fully dress 408 crate engine for $5k-6k. Now a crate is around $11k at Summitt for a BluePrint Ford 306 c.i.d. 370 hp long block crate engine.

Stupid me, also wants higher Horse power, which always hurts the wallet.

If I do go with a used block, I am going to use the 351w I already own. It came out of a 1989 Bronco and was still running strong at the time. I got the Bronco for $500, because the previous owner owed a bunch of money on late registration fees and tickets. Me and a buddy stripped everything off it and sold the carcass to a metal recycling company for $450. I sold off all the extras stuff and my friend took the transmission for his Bronco, that is still running great with the C6. I ended up making around $600 above what I paid for the Bronco.

Long story short, sorry for the long post.

You can do thing cheap and still work well, but reliable horse power is never cheap. That is my dilemma now, where do I cut costs? I have already spent another $4700 for a 1972 donor Bronco, thousands on Fox racing shocks and a whole new set of fenders and hood for my project. I even forked out $2200 for Mastercraft race seats and a rear bench seat. I have note even got my gauges yet which will be around $1400 alone from Dakota.

I will be into the $30k+ range by the time I am done with my 1972 Full-size Bronco with a long travel 1986 Bronco chassis. So far it has taken 10 years of saving parts for the 86, then 2 years ago I changed the project to include a 1972 Bronco body with a clean vin to make a 12 wider and longer Early Bronco. A friend built one on a 1990 chassis and I am using his project as a template for mine.

Sorry I am so long winded. I am stuck at home with a severely herniated disc in my lower back and I am bored to death. I am still buys parts and fortunately I can work remotely from home to pay for my bad Bronco addiction. I am selling a bunch of the 72 drive train and axles and the 86 fiberglass fenders to a friend that will in exchange do much of the heavy lifting on the cutting and stretching of the 72 body to fit the 86 chassis. I am keeping the 86 floor and inner tub walls to make it a 4 seater luxury Prerunner with all the amenities.

Ok, I will shut up...

David

 

[chuck1022]

The price I got for a Dart Block was $13k for parts alone. Keep in mind, that included tax and shipping along with getting high quality parts, like the $3k for heads, all top quality ARB race bolts and all the best accessories. Not the cheapest stuff, but the best prices I could find on the race quality high end parts with good reputations from race engine builders.

I will not be spending $50k like some of the professional Trophy truck teams do, but I still want something that is going to last a long time and put up with hard driving on occasion in the sand dunes.

I priced everything on the high side, because prices keep going up. 10 years ago, I could have got a fully dress 408 crate engine for $5k-6k. Now a crate is around $11k at Summitt for a BluePrint Ford 306 c.i.d. 370 hp long block crate engine.

Stupid me, also wants higher Horse power, which always hurts the wallet.

If I do go with a used block, I am going to use the 351w I already own. It came out of a 1989 Bronco and was still running strong at the time. I got the Bronco for $500, because the previous owner owed a bunch of money on late registration fees and tickets. Me and a buddy stripped everything off it and sold the carcass to a metal recycling company for $450. I sold off all the extras stuff and my friend took the transmission for his Bronco, that is still running great with the C6. I ended up making around $600 above what I paid for the Bronco.

Long story short, sorry for the long post.

You can do thing cheap and still work well, but reliable horse power is never cheap. That is my dilemma now, where do I cut costs? I have already spent another $4700 for a 1972 donor Bronco, thousands on Fox racing shocks and a whole new set of fenders and hood for my project. I even forked out $2200 for Mastercraft race seats and a rear bench seat. I have note even got my gauges yet which will be around $1400 alone from Dakota.

I will be into the $30k+ range by the time I am done with my 1972 Full-size Bronco with a long travel 1986 Bronco chassis. So far it has taken 10 years of saving parts for the 86, then 2 years ago I changed the project to include a 1972 Bronco body with a clean vin to make a 12 wider and longer Early Bronco. A friend built one on a 1990 chassis and I am using his project as a template for mine.

Sorry I am so long winded. I am stuck at home with a severely herniated disc in my lower back and I am bored to death. I am still buys parts and fortunately I can work remotely from home to pay for my bad Bronco addiction. I am selling a bunch of the 72 drive train and axles and the 86 fiberglass fenders to a friend that will in exchange do much of the heavy lifting on the cutting and stretching of the 72 body to fit the 86 chassis. I am keeping the 86 floor and inner tub walls to make it a 4 seater luxury Prerunner with all the amenities.

Ok, I will shut up...

David

I need to know about this 72 stretch.

 

[Wrightracing]

I need to know about this 72 stretch.

Lookup Chris Wilson and Glen Straightiff Class 3 Early Bronco. My build is based on their build. I have been friend's with Glen for 20+ year's and I have learned a lot from him.

David

 

[nvrstuk]

The price I got for a Dart Block was $13k for parts alone. Keep in mind, that included tax and shipping along with getting high quality parts, like the $3k for heads, all top quality ARB race bolts and all the best accessories. Not the cheapest stuff, but the best prices I could find on the race quality high end parts with good reputations from race engine builders.

I will not be spending $50k like some of the professional Trophy truck teams do, but I still want something that is going to last a long time and put up with hard driving on occasion in the sand dunes.

I priced everything on the high side, because prices keep going up. 10 years ago, I could have got a fully dress 408 crate engine for $5k-6k. Now a crate is around $11k at Summitt for a BluePrint Ford 306 c.i.d. 370 hp long block crate engine.

Stupid me, also wants higher Horse power, which always hurts the wallet.

If I do go with a used block, I am going to use the 351w I already own. It came out of a 1989 Bronco and was still running strong at the time. I got the Bronco for $500, because the previous owner owed a bunch of money on late registration fees and tickets. Me and a buddy stripped everything off it and sold the carcass to a metal recycling company for $450. I sold off all the extras stuff and my friend took the transmission for his Bronco, that is still running great with the C6. I ended up making around $600 above what I paid for the Bronco.

Long story short, sorry for the long post.

You can do thing cheap and still work well, but reliable horse power is never cheap. That is my dilemma now, where do I cut costs? I have already spent another $4700 for a 1972 donor Bronco, thousands on Fox racing shocks and a whole new set of fenders and hood for my project. I even forked out $2200 for Mastercraft race seats and a rear bench seat. I have note even got my gauges yet which will be around $1400 alone from Dakota.

I will be into the $30k+ range by the time I am done with my 1972 Full-size Bronco with a long travel 1986 Bronco chassis. So far it has taken 10 years of saving parts for the 86, then 2 years ago I changed the project to include a 1972 Bronco body with a clean vin to make a 12 wider and longer Early Bronco. A friend built one on a 1990 chassis and I am using his project as a template for mine.

Sorry I am so long winded. I am stuck at home with a severely herniated disc in my lower back and I am bored to death. I am still buys parts and fortunately I can work remotely from home to pay for my bad Bronco addiction. I am selling a bunch of the 72 drive train and axles and the 86 fiberglass fenders to a friend that will in exchange do much of the heavy lifting on the cutting and stretching of the 72 body to fit the 86 chassis. I am keeping the 86 floor and inner tub walls to make it a 4 seater luxury Prerunner with all the amenities.

Ok, I will shut up...

David

Don't worry about writing a book.... all good stuff- except the heads. Body and chassis mod's sound great.

GT40 heads on a stroker that will be turning 6K plus rpms? Not sure how to say you just killed the performance of what could be a great performing engine. Using heads designed for an engine that has 66 percent less cubes

TFS or AFR (upgraded) both have their advantages but don't kill your engine with heads designed for a 302.

Hope your back heals up quick!

 

[bmc69]

Could always just build a stroked 400 (445) and call it a day. ;-)

 

[LilMixedUp]

personally that's the best route. Deal with someone you know, then you know what you're getting and they are there if and when you have questions and/or issues... 68-74 were the heavy blocks and were considered some of the best "factory" blocks available... but running Pro-flow EFI system (rated at 600HP) IMO any block from 84-97 handle 600 HP plus they are roller blocks.

 

[Broncobowsher]

personally that's the best route. Deal with someone you know, then you know what you're getting and they are there if and when you have questions and/or issues... 68-74 were the heavy blocks and were considered some of the best "factory" blocks available... but running Pro-flow EFI system (rated at 600HP) IMO any block from 84-97 handle 600 HP plus they are roller blocks.

No, only the '94-97 blocks are factory roller. The '84 and up are one piece rear main seal.
Now the 5.0 blocks are all roller castings starting in '85.
Not all roller blocks were fitted with roller cams. Many of them were filled with regular flat tappet cams.

 

[nvrstuk]

long one-

OP said he currently needs a block and IF he can find one hopefully it can be cleaned up at .030" to save cash. Engine stuff has gone bat$)@# crazy on pricing the past 3 yrs. I mean, crazy price increases so I totally understand the dilemma. Heck, a set of Morel roller lifters are over $500 now. I paid $425 8 months ago and was splurging then... now another 20% increase!

Dang...

Next, and it's time to bring this up is cooling. ALL the aftermarket 351W based blocks run much cooler, I mean night and day cooler than an OE 351W block. Why?

2 main reasons and I did a ton of research on this 10 yrs ago with at least 20 interviews of guys running aftermarket blocks

1- smaller main journals. All the aftermarket blocks run Cleveland mains

2- iron. Look at the sides of a Dart SBF block and you will notice that it's not flat It has 8 large cylinder shaped protrusions sticking out of the side of the block. This not only lets you bore it a ridiculous amount (I went to a 454 cuin build on a brand new block once as the customer liked the "454" moniker and he still has it and drives it as often as he can from 2007.) but what's important is the heat transfer you get with that much iron surrounding each cylinder. He cools his with a stock EB radiator and one 11" electric fan (no-name brand). He runs another 11" in the front for that 1 day a year he needs to move more air- I kid you not.

We have all heard the stories of 351W blocks being hard to cool. Mostly true, you have to have a well designed cooling system but of the 20+ guys I talked to 10-15 years ago asking specific cooling questions nary a one had cooling issues with their aftermarket Dart blocks- not one and most were pretty solid builds.

The Ford Racing 351W block does not have the same amount of material around the bores and can't be bored out nearly as far. Comparing the two blocks side by side shows that the Ford Racing block has noticeably more "finished" machining done to it than the Dart block but you need to take both to the machine shop anyway right?

Where you really notice the difference for cooling is when spinning them up. The Cleveland mains really makes a difference for oil temps believe it or not. I know one guy that runs a cooler for his and it made a big difference (can't remember the #'s but it was noticeable he said).

Just saw a SBF SHP Dart for $2500. I totally understand the sticker shock you must be going through.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

Where did you see the Dart for $2500? Best I can find is $3100 including shipping.