- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Messages
- 51,622
Sorry Ol'Blue, but I think you've been kind of pissing into the wind a bit here.
Lot of good work you've gone to already, but you've been fighting some misconceptions from the beginning.
A few comments (so what's new!%)):
I bet! Big caster numbers for any Bronco.
As you're finding though, without modifying the front axle assembly you can't get that much caster on an EB without having pinion angle problems.
We love caster of course, but 'ya gotta' have angle to the dangle.
Double-cardan = single CV. A "cardan" is the original name for a universal joint or u-joint. Hence the name double-cardan for what is also the original design for a constant-velocity or CV joint. While not what you find on a modern front wheel drive car, it's still a "CV joint" in name at least. Just one of many types.
Yes you do. That, in fact, is where your problem actually is. The issue at the upper end is simply a symptom or a result of your actual problem. And that problem is pinion angle pure and simple.
It's a great setup. But you still need to address pinion angle, same as you do for any driveshaft design. In this case however you need to match the upper and lower joint angles as close as possible to keep it vibration free.
You're both correct. They are correct in having you wait until you get your final setup before deciding what to do about your angles and how much correction you will have to add in.
You're likely correct that you will still have the issue because you still have a lot of caster correction in what you're building.
Sorry, but nothing to figure out. They've all pretty much laid out what you HAVE to do to get rid of your problem. You either get rid of all that hard-won caster, or you correct it in the only way possible on a front end like yours. And that's to go back to 2° C-bushings to minimize your pinion drop, then measure what you need to get back in caster, then CUT the steering yokes and rotate them back to achieve it.
Other than a purpose built front end with that all set up for you, or sacrificing caster, it's your only solution. Period.
It hurts less that you needed a new one anyway, but I sure hope this one ends up being the correct one in the end. Since you measured for it with the pinion so far off that you could not even make the ends meet, chances could be that it'll be too long when you do finally correct the problem. Which happens to be the pinion angle.
Remember another little tidbit regarding u-joints. They get WEAKER as the working angles increase. A LOT weaker.
So there is good precedent and another good reason to always pay attention to your pinion angle. If you get this all working as-is, your front single u-joint is going to be by far your weakest link when out wheeling.
Good call. But I'd go all the way to 2 degrees as you were thinking, because at this point, if just working with bolt-on stuff as it sits, getting good caster angles is pretty low on the list. It's all about pinion angle, so sacrificing some caster is the only way to improve that angle without cutting and rotating the yokes.
That's actually a pretty good drop for what you're running. I'd have to say that's a testament to what you gained by having TW clearance things a bit for you. Looks like they did a good job.
I would. But can you get away with that for what you are doing with your Bronco? I always say a 3.5 is better than a 4.5 for a lot of things. Including what you're currently dealing with. So my vote at least is 3.5 and 2° unless it's too much of a compromise for other things.
But your steering and driveshafts will certainly thank you!
Most do. And many (most?) regret all the money and effort and hassle of trying to avoid the issue when it's not all that bad or expensive to begin with. It's like trying to change camshafts without removing the grille. Or changing a water pump without at least removing the radiator first.
It's not for nothing that you want to avoid it I'm sure. It does seem a lot of work in the beginning. But there are some shops that do it for under $200 bucks and a lot of members here have done it themselves with less trouble than they thought.
Maybe Whoaa can chime in again on that score. I think he did his own?
Was it as much trouble as it seems Whoaa? Or less than expected?
Thanks
Paul
Lot of good work you've gone to already, but you've been fighting some misconceptions from the beginning.
A few comments (so what's new!%)):
I bet! Big caster numbers for any Bronco.
As you're finding though, without modifying the front axle assembly you can't get that much caster on an EB without having pinion angle problems.
We love caster of course, but 'ya gotta' have angle to the dangle.
Double-cardan = single CV. A "cardan" is the original name for a universal joint or u-joint. Hence the name double-cardan for what is also the original design for a constant-velocity or CV joint. While not what you find on a modern front wheel drive car, it's still a "CV joint" in name at least. Just one of many types.
Yes you do. That, in fact, is where your problem actually is. The issue at the upper end is simply a symptom or a result of your actual problem. And that problem is pinion angle pure and simple.
It's a great setup. But you still need to address pinion angle, same as you do for any driveshaft design. In this case however you need to match the upper and lower joint angles as close as possible to keep it vibration free.
You're both correct. They are correct in having you wait until you get your final setup before deciding what to do about your angles and how much correction you will have to add in.
You're likely correct that you will still have the issue because you still have a lot of caster correction in what you're building.
Sorry, but nothing to figure out. They've all pretty much laid out what you HAVE to do to get rid of your problem. You either get rid of all that hard-won caster, or you correct it in the only way possible on a front end like yours. And that's to go back to 2° C-bushings to minimize your pinion drop, then measure what you need to get back in caster, then CUT the steering yokes and rotate them back to achieve it.
Other than a purpose built front end with that all set up for you, or sacrificing caster, it's your only solution. Period.
It hurts less that you needed a new one anyway, but I sure hope this one ends up being the correct one in the end. Since you measured for it with the pinion so far off that you could not even make the ends meet, chances could be that it'll be too long when you do finally correct the problem. Which happens to be the pinion angle.
Remember another little tidbit regarding u-joints. They get WEAKER as the working angles increase. A LOT weaker.
So there is good precedent and another good reason to always pay attention to your pinion angle. If you get this all working as-is, your front single u-joint is going to be by far your weakest link when out wheeling.
Good call. But I'd go all the way to 2 degrees as you were thinking, because at this point, if just working with bolt-on stuff as it sits, getting good caster angles is pretty low on the list. It's all about pinion angle, so sacrificing some caster is the only way to improve that angle without cutting and rotating the yokes.
That's actually a pretty good drop for what you're running. I'd have to say that's a testament to what you gained by having TW clearance things a bit for you. Looks like they did a good job.
I would. But can you get away with that for what you are doing with your Bronco? I always say a 3.5 is better than a 4.5 for a lot of things. Including what you're currently dealing with. So my vote at least is 3.5 and 2° unless it's too much of a compromise for other things.
But your steering and driveshafts will certainly thank you!
Most do. And many (most?) regret all the money and effort and hassle of trying to avoid the issue when it's not all that bad or expensive to begin with. It's like trying to change camshafts without removing the grille. Or changing a water pump without at least removing the radiator first.
It's not for nothing that you want to avoid it I'm sure. It does seem a lot of work in the beginning. But there are some shops that do it for under $200 bucks and a lot of members here have done it themselves with less trouble than they thought.
Maybe Whoaa can chime in again on that score. I think he did his own?
Was it as much trouble as it seems Whoaa? Or less than expected?
Thanks
Paul
