electrical question for when starting.. im scratching my heard here..

[Steve83]

It's been a week - did you ever whack the relay?

 

[savage]

It's been a week - did you ever whack the relay?

He replace it with a new relay in post 8, then he replaced the ignition switch and key cylinder in post 15, and still has the problem.

 

[Steve83]

He said starter solenoid in post #8 - not starter relay. The solenoid is on the starter.

But I see the diagram in post #19 has it mislabelled, and the relay in that post looks new, so I guess he meant the relay.

 

[Justafordguy]

I wonder if he has a late model gear reduction starter? That would change things a bit.

 

[work765]

Where do the three big cables attached to the starter relay go?
More specifically, where do the two large ones on the same stud go?

If everything else is connected properly, disconnecting your Red w/blue wire means that the starter relay/solenoid/thingy has failed and is giving full power to the starter. But that's only IF it's all connected properly. And yours has definitely been molested at some point in it's life.

Paul

I'll check when I get home from work. But if I remember. The two large on the positive side(battery positive & to starter/ or alternator(I didn't follow the wire down)) , negative side was grounded to the engine block.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Also When I go to connect the battery ground wire to test. There is some serious sparks too, like full current flowing through. I assume that's normal, just wanted to share.


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[Skiddy]

I'll check when I get home from work. But if I remember. The two large on the positive side(battery positive & to starter/ or alternator(I didn't follow the wire down)) , negative side was grounded to the engine block.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Also When I go to connect the battery ground wire to test. There is some serious sparks too, like full current flowing through. I assume that's normal, just wanted to share.


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no a serious spark is not normal, just a little one if you have a stereo or something. a larger spark means you have a large draw going somewhere. be time to do some tests

 

[DirtDonk]

In this case Skiddy, it's his starter that is energized. So yeah, I'd say sparks would be normal. Some pretty good fireworks too, if you're tentative with the connection.

Curious too work765, if you have a modern PMGR starter. That's where, like Steve was saying, the solenoid is piggybacked on the starter motor itself. This can change the orientation of the wires and how things work.
You may have said already, but I don't remember seeing what type of starter you have.

So maybe a pic of that when you get the chance too. Just to be sure.
Thanks

Paul

 

[gr8scott]

I'll check when I get home from work. But if I remember. The two large on the positive side(battery positive & to starter/ or alternator(I didn't follow the wire down)) , negative side was grounded to the engine block.

Where does this cable go?

 

[work765]

Okay. So checked it out again after work. On the left side of my pic. The two big wires are battery positive and the alternator(red) wire. On the right side, the big wire goes to the starter.

Should i detach the alternator wire and then detach the blue/red one and try hooking up again?
There are some other other accessory wires on the positive side of the solenoid. Should I start taking all those off and just have the battery positive? And then the black that goes to the starter..



I am attaching some bad pics of the starter. I don't have much light in my parking garage...

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[ransil]

you need a voltmeter and need to check voltage reading one every wire on the solenoid.
That is a stock Bronco starter, Not a PMGR
the battery and alternator wires are Ok on the side of the solenoid

 

[charlie6976]

Any update?

1)... in post 15, did you replace the whole ignition/starter switch or just the key and tumbler?
2)... in post 8 you replaced the starter solenoid. There is a small chance you received a bad new solenoid. Check by removing all wires from the solenoid and see if power goes from one side to the other. Continuity test. With nothing connected it should not.
The power to your starter comes through that solenoid. Did you check the connections before and after you made changes?

 

[work765]

Any update?

1)... in post 15, did you replace the whole ignition/starter switch or just the key and tumbler?
2)... in post 8 you replaced the starter solenoid. There is a small chance you received a bad new solenoid. Check by removing all wires from the solenoid and see if power goes from one side to the other. Continuity test. With nothing connected it should not.
The power to your starter comes through that solenoid. Did you check the connections before and after you made changes?

Yes I changed out the complete ignition switch and changed out the key tumbler. When I pulled my old tumbler out it basically fell apart. So I had to swap that and I picked up the Ignition switch from Oriellys.

I'll check to see if the solenoid is working when I get home tnight, and report back.

Question- so right now the starter is still hooked up and every time I go to put the ground on I get big sparks. I can swear a bit of slag has built up from the dozen times I have tried hooking up my ground.
So to continue testing I'm going to remove the starter cable off the solenoid. BUT won't full voltage/amps be running through the whole system? Is there anything I need to worry about when I hook up that ground? Like the issue somewhere getting red hot and burning up?

I'll unhook ground when done testing.


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[ransil]

Yes I changed out the complete ignition switch and changed out the key tumbler. When I pulled my old tumbler out it basically fell apart. So I had to swap that and I picked up the Ignition switch from Oriellys.

I'll check to see if the solenoid is working when I get home tnight, and report back.

Question- so right now the starter is still hooked up and every time I go to put the ground on I get big sparks. I can swear a bit of slag has built up from the dozen times I have tried hooking up my ground.
So to continue testing I'm going to remove the starter cable off the solenoid. BUT won't full voltage/amps be running through the whole system? Is there anything I need to worry about when I hook up that ground? Like the issue somewhere getting red hot and burning up?

I'll unhook ground when done testing.


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no problem removing the starter wire..

get a voltmeter free at Harbor freight with a coupon

 

[DirtDonk]

I'll check to see if the solenoid is working when I get home tnight, and report back.

You know it's not, because the starter is engaging every time you connect the battery. But it can be only one of two things. Either the solenoid itself (it's really a relay, not a solenoid) is bad, or the Red w/blue wire is getting power when it shouldn't.
I think you said you disconnected that wire and it still had the problem, so that leads back to something I'm pretty sure we already said. You could have a bad relay.
This even more common than charlie was saying. I'd say out of every story here of people replacing their starter relays with new store bought ones, about 60% of them experienced problems with them. Some right out of the box, others within a week.
So it's not without precedent.

I hate it when I sound so confident. With Broncos and their little quirks, when I say something with absolute certainty like that, it's usually something else!:-[

Question- so right now the starter is still hooked up and every time I go to put the ground on I get big sparks. I can swear a bit of slag has built up from the dozen times I have tried hooking up my ground.

Of course. It's normal. You're basically arc welding, and bits of metal from one side or the other heat up, distort and/or transfer from one component to the other.
It's not a good thing, but it's "normal" when you're testing a big cable like that with a large current trying to be pulled through it. Very likely your starter is trying to pull 100 amps or more every time you get that cable touching metal.

So to continue testing I'm going to remove the starter cable off the solenoid.

Good. This will at least isolate the starter from the mix and let you know that the problem is not between the relay and the starter. That's something we should already know of course (since it's extremely unlikely, if not outright impossible) but it never hurts to test and know for sure.

BUT won't full voltage/amps be running through the whole system?

No. Electricity doesn't work like that. For it to flow through a wire it has to have a "load" at the other end. Or a short circuit to ground of course.
If there is no load, such as the heater motor running or a light on, there is no flow.
And to top that off, it only "flows" as much as the load demands. So a small dash light that's on is only going to "pull" a couple of amps of 12v power and give you a small spark. Your starter on the other hand, is trying to pull 100 amps or more. Which is why you get the big arcing sparks.

Is there anything I need to worry about when I hook up that ground? Like the issue somewhere getting red hot and burning up?

No again. Only if there is something at the other end that is shorted out or pulling more amperage than the wire is capable of handling.
If there was nothing doing that before you disconnected the starter motor, there should not be anything doing it after.
This is why we can get away with using a 200 amp alternator on an old system, but have to upgrade the main charge wire anyway.
The alternator is only going to produce 10 amps if that's all that is needed to keep things working and the battery charged. But if it ever is called upon to put out 100, 150 or 200 amps to power something heavy like a dead battery or a winch or a starter motor, then the little original charge wire will surely get hot and may even melt and cause some Vesuvius-like fireworks and smoke from under the hood and dash!

But what you have is not going to do that unless you short out a power wire while messing about in there.

Or, in the immortal words of Leslie Neilson... "No pressure. We're all counting on you...";D

Paul

 

[broncobilly72]

Just a thought...disconnect the two small wires going to the solinoid, then try and hook up the started. If the soinoid is good the starter should not run.

 

[partsloco]

If you replace the ignition switch check the starter solenoid. Get a test light, disconnect your starter so you don't burn up your starter or battery. Whack the solenoid a few times. If you are still getting power on the starter side then remove the two top terminal wires. Those wire feed back to the ignition switch.


If you have the ignition switch wires (top two small wires) removed and still getting power on the starter side then you have a stuck/bad starter relay.

If you no longer have power on the starter side after removing the top two wires then you have an ignition switch problem or bad wire.

 

[Steve83]

That is a stock Bronco starter, Not a PMGR

Right. Which means there is no starter solenoid on that truck - only the starter relay.

 

[work765]

You know it's not, because the starter is engaging every time you connect the battery. But it can be only one of two things. Either the solenoid itself (it's really a relay, not a solenoid) is bad, or the Red w/blue wire is getting power when it shouldn't.
I think you said you disconnected that wire and it still had the problem, so that leads back to something I'm pretty sure we already said. You could have a bad relay.
This even more common than charlie was saying. I'd say out of every story here of people replacing their starter relays with new store bought ones, about 60% of them experienced problems with them. Some right out of the box, others within a week.
So it's not without precedent.

Paul

Soooo, on the way home I stop by oriellys and grab another solenoid/relay, just incase.
Finally get a chance to work on it and do all tests as you guys said, and a small amount of volts is showing up on the meter-when I hit it to the starter side lug.
I unplug the little top wires and test some more, test and test.
And decide I'm gonna change out the damn thing because of what you guys said about if the small top wires are unhooked it shouldn't be anything on the starter lug.
I hook up the new solenoid/relay. And do a quick test and the volt meter hardly registers anything. But it did get like .3 or something. So I was still concerned. I go ahead and hook the starter back up and then go to do the final test and hook up the battery ground and no sparks and no cranking!! At this point I'm pretty damn excited. I clear all the tools away and jump in the cab, and turn the key and she fired up just like normal!! manhood was restored! I basically walked slowly around my bronco looking triumphant hoping one of my neighbors would see me

Man it felt good to get it working! Now back to driven her daily!

Thanks everyone for the help and to keep chiming in and not let this get buried. And as always, Paul, big thanks!! One of these days I'm gonna have to return the favor. Every problem I have had, you have always helped!



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[Skiddy]

woo hoo, so glad that fixed it. what brand did you get?

 

[Steve83]

Crack open the original relay, and post some pics of what the guts look like.