First-time start checklist UPDATE - POST 19 - IT CRANKED!! calling timing gurus!

[77RHINO]

Thank you for the info Steve, I have looked that over and still have some questions. Could my issue be the fuel? Its been sitting about a month (87), and this engine should be around 9.6 or so compression, but maybe higher. It has a new timing chain, new oil pump (just under to 70PSI at startup) the distributor is an 83 v8 with a funnel from the 77302, cap and rotor come from a 78, and the gear is off the original 96 dist. Once it fires it revs good, just diesels. I am wondering if the fuel was a higher octane it would start where the dist should be where it wouldn't diesel, and would idle lower...It does seem to idle high, but i don't have a tach to know for sure what my rpms are at. Im not sure what the spec should be for my new engine, because everything has been modified. The carb (Edel 1826)is new as well, so I havent figured out it's sweet spot yet either.

 

[77RHINO]

I never heard any "pinging" (maybe b/c I don't know what that sounds like), but I did notice when running it this weekend that the headers were getting super hot, so I went ahead and added 1/2 bottle of lucas octane booster (one bottle for 25 gals) and turned my dist counter clockwise to where it wasn't starting, but I haven't had a chance to crank it yet, waiting on weather.

 

[Steve83]

Could my issue be the fuel? Its been sitting about a month (87)...

Fuel can cause a lot of issues, but I'm not sure what you mean. I've driven on gas that's over 2 years old with no problems.

Once it fires it revs good, just diesels.

Again: IDK what you mean. Dieseling usually means run-on after the key is OFF. But it also means pinging/preignition/detonation.

Im not sure what the spec should be for my new engine, because everything has been modified.

Then use vacuum.

I never heard any "pinging" (maybe b/c I don't know what that sounds like)...

It sounds like dieseling (in one sense).

...the headers were getting super hot...

That usually means the engine is running lean.

 

[77RHINO]

In trying the distributor in different positions, the more clockwise I turned it, it would start/idle better, but when I turned the key off, it would diesel/run on bad and then try to backfire enough that I could hear air coming backwards out the air cleaner...the more counter clockwise I turned it, it would be tougher to start/idle but would not diesel or anything upon shutoff..when building the motor, I read in one of my searches that if the compression was high enough that 87 fuel could cause this, so I am thinking that may be an issue. When I can get after it again, I will try to retard the timing further and see if it will run better with the higher octane fuel. One issue I know I messed up on was not correctly plugging the vacuum port when checking timing, I only plugged the dist. I will plug both dist and carb and see what that does. Reading some Ford references, I read that 6-8* initial timing would be a good starting point, so I will try for that. For vacuum, should I try the timed port (higher port) so that it would only run initial time at idle, and wouldn't advance until after throttle is applied? I read this could also assist with run-on, because full manifold could still pull air through after shutoff. Thank you for your help!

 

[Steve83]

The ports on the carb should be labelled, and the distributor vacuum advance should be connected to PV (Ported Vacuum).

Timing alone can't cause run-on. Not even high compression & timing, by themselves. Adjust the carb for a lower idle speed, and make sure float & mixture settings are correct so there's not enough gas getting in for run-on. Some carbs also have a dashpot or anti-run-on solenoid that hold the throttle at idle, but drop it when the key is OFF. If yours doesn't, see if one is available for it.

 

[77RHINO]

Alright, I switched the port from manifold vacuum over to ported, and then made sure I was at TDC by removing spark plug and rotating engine by crank bolt till I heard air coming past my finger. Popped dist cap, and the rotor was close to the #1 wire. I manually rotated engine back towards 6*BTDC and then lined dist back up with #1 wire, still no fire. same with 7*-8* as well, even tried with vacuum advanced disconnected and plugged. Started smelling fuel, figured I was flooding it, and the battery hasn't been charged the last two times Ive worked on it, so I ratcheted it back up in the garage for the night. I will set a charger on it today to make sure it has a good charge for when I can start on it again, possibly tomorrow. Also turned both A/F mix screws all the way in and then came back 1.5 turns on each. I did not use any starting fluid on it, I am trying to get it going under its own means. Does this sound like I need more advance?

 

[Steve83]

Sorry - I've about reached the end of what I can help you with on a carb. This is why I prefer EFI. But I don't know why you're trying to adjust the distributor at 6°BTDC; put the engine at TDC (0°), set the dist where you can twist it to both sides of the rotor tip, put the key in RUN, use a crank trigger to run the starter, and twist the dist back & forth until it runs. Then go back to adjusting the timing & carb with a vacuum gauge.

 

[77RHINO]

Steve, thank you for your time on this. After a few hours yesterday, I pulled the spark plugs to see how they were looking and they were covered in unburnt fuel...went back and sniffed exhaust, same smell. Took the #1 and grounded it on the power booster (so I could see it while cranking) and realized I've got no spark. Also tested by hooking up timing light, looked at the lens as I turned it over, it never fired up either. Went and replaced the ignition control module and ignition coil, but haven't gotten a spark yet. I am going to go this afternoon and have my little brain box on the passenger fenderwell checked. I am wondering if it was going out and is the reason my engine wouldn't run correctly in the beginning. Whenever I was priming the pump, I had the key on to measure oil PSI, and forgot to turn it off while stabbing the dist. in, and I saw some sparking before going and turning the key off. It did crank after that, but didn't run well. The dist. has no soot or smoky spots inside it, still looks clean, so I am thinking it may have cooked the brain. With key to ON, I saw .83v at the coil on the multimeter. before swapping Control module and coil, it was at .64ish.

 

[Bonco4Broncos]

After you get the Ignition working make sure you are using the BTDC and not the ATDC scale for the timing. After reading thru this thread again it sounds like you have the timing way advanced. This could be a simple mistake to make. IMO the old Ford ignition modules were undependable. 1 might last 10 years and another a couple of months. I went with a HEI distributor with all ignition built into it including the Coil. Of course they can fail also but I like the simpicity of them. Having the timing set out toward the 10 ATDC could cause the red hot headers also.

 

[77RHINO]

The summit dampener i am using doesnt have marks above 0, only runs from 40BTDC to 0*..I will go back to 0* TDC and go ported vacuum to start again once i get the ignition figured out, and hopefully itll run like it is supposed to. I am not fond of turning it over so much when it has only run for 10 mins total so far, i need another 10 mins or so of running before i can flush the radiator and take it for a test drive!

 

[xcntrk]

I agree that given the timing mark situation that you should just stab the dizzy at TDC, leave it loose, get it to start, then quickly start rotating left/right to determine where it idles best. That should get you running enough to get the first full warm-up going and in a position to get a timing light on it. Also note, if your timing marks are not identifiable, you can get some timing tape from Summit for SBF dampener. I kept my stock dampener and use the Explorer timing cover with the pointer on the opposite side so I simply marked (notched) TDC, then used new timing tape for the BTDC readings. Works great!

 

[Steve83]

...I've got no spark. ...little brain box on the passenger fenderwell checked.

I'm not 100% sure on these locations, but I think the voltage regulator is on the passenger side, and the ignition module is on the driver's. This diagram agrees:



The VR has nothing to do with spark - the truck will start & run for a few hours with no VR or alternator (depending on how well the battery is charged).

Posting pics of your engine bay would help...
http://www.supermotors.net/forums/thid-5972-how-do-i-post-pictures-sounds-and-or-videos

But it sounds now like your main problem is that the coil isn't firing, OR the distributor is so far off that the spark can't jump to the wire terminal inside the cap.

 

[77RHINO]

You are correct Steve, it was the voltage regulator, which I replaced anyways, considering I did spark the dist a little bit, I didn't want to take any chances. I was unaware that the timing could be far off enough to not spark at all, and I have gotten under there and found TDC (air coming past my finger, keep rotating till it stops) and then checking my timing marks (xcntrk, I used sidewalk chalk to make them visible, worked out great!). Is it possible that the balancer marks are incorrect? I have the balancer w numbers on dr side, with pointer on dr side timing chain cover. That is not what was on there originally, but seemed to be the only easy option with the larger dampner and bronco water pump orientation, and it looked like it all lined up perfect upon initial install with the new timing chain, keyway slot, dots, etc. Here is the dampener I have: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-163289 I have two separate coils, and with the key to ON but not turning over, I'm getting .83 Volts. Is that correct?

 

[xcntrk]

You should be able to confirm the marks on your dampener pretty easily by locating TDC using the method you described, then match your pointer up. You can use a TDC dowel/tool to ensure you have 100% accuracy on TDC (I use a cut plastic drinking straw). Once you're on TDC, inspect the damper for how your marks line up. Everything should be spot on. If not, you might want to go down the road of removing the front dress, pump, timing cover and get your cam/damper properly aligned. It's a pretty easy process to line up, the keyway on the damper points directly to the alignment pin on the cam when #1 is at TDC.

 

[Steve83]

Is it possible that the balancer marks are incorrect?

Yes. Read the distributor-stabbing instructions I posted earlier. It covers checking for a slipped HB ring & bent/incorrect pointer.

...with the key to ON but not turning over, I'm getting .83 Volts. Is that correct?

I don't understand exactly what you're measuring, so I can't confirm/correct you. You'd have to either post a pic or describe exactly where each meter probe is, and the state of the ig.sw., and battery voltage, and remind me how the engine is wired, and...

It's a pretty easy process to line up, the keyway on the damper points directly to the alignment pin on the cam when #1 is at TDC.

You're describing a jumped timing chain, which is very different from a slipped balancer, and much more severe to repair. Just realigning the timing is pointless - if the chain is stretched enough to jump, it has to be replaced.



But if he's getting any compression, the cam timing is probably OK.

 

[77RHINO]

Guys, continued thanks for your help on this. If I had hair, I'd have already pulled it out. Since it was raining, I couldn't pull it outside to really work on much, I just changed the oil (reeked of fuel) and drained the radiator and filled back with cleaner distilled water until I can get some good runs in one day. I also found TDC with the help of a friend and a straw, which seems to be off from my 0* mark, by maybe 15 degrees. It is a brand new timing chain, so I don't see how it could have enough slack to jump, plus I felt hard resistance when turning it over getting close to that point. I will more than likely get further confirmation from the hot rod shop down the street. Did 1 test, I plugged a spark plug into the end of the ignition coil, grounded it, and turned it over. No spark. Even if my timing marks were inaccurate, that is apparently the smaller problem here. As earlier stated, new ignition module, new coil (2nd "new" one), new voltage regulator (irrelevant here but replaced anyways). Distributor is a new one but built of frankenstein parts, gear from '96, shaft/electronics from '83, funnel from '77, and cap/rotor from '78 so I could have the larger male cap and standard plug wires. I built this entire motor, and I'm close to sending it to a shop to get it running because this is sickening.

 

[Broncobowsher]

TDC with a straw. I presume you were using that down the spark plug hole. That would have nothing to do with a timing chain. You could remove the timing chain and the cam and still check TDC through a spark plug hole.

 

[Seventee]

Everyone is focused on timing but it sounds like you are not getting voltage (only 0.83V) to the + side of the coil. You said something sparked during install, have you checked fuses?

 

[77RHINO]

I have not checked fuses, mainly because it cranked after that happened, but didn't run well. I will check tonight to see if there are any blown fuses, I hadn't even thought about that. When the key is turned to on, with my multimeter stuck in the + side of the coil and grounded on battery terminal, it is reading .83V. I am not sure if it goes higher (or is supposed to) when the key turns to start though. I will see if I can get someone to turn it over while I check.

 

[77RHINO]

Made some great progress tonight. Checked fuses, they were all good. Went back and looked at the wiring for the coil, because I remembered that I had to move it around after the last time it ran to seal the heater neck hookup better. Sure enough, as I started un-taping the positive wire to the coil, it just fell out of the tape, don't know if any strands were really connected. I cleaned the wiring, put on a new butt connector, and hooked it up, turned key to ON - 12.9 VOLTS!!! I pushed it outside to get everything ready for cranking, and as soon as I started turning it over I smelled too much fuel and knew it was still flooded. I could feel the body shake at the top of the stroke trying to fire, but just too much fuel/vapor from previous attempts I guess. I don't want to use starter fluid, figured I would let it air out, so I ratchet strapped it back in the garage (live on a hill) pulled the air cleaner and all the spark plugs, and set a charger on the battery to be prepared for tomorrow. Fingers crossed!!