Help!!! 4R70W issues

[Viperwolf1]

The angle really needs to match the angle of the lever on the column. That will keep it from binding. Just as important is the distance the rod is placed on the lever. This determines the travel. It needs to be the same on both ends. That distance is measured from the center of the column to the rod on the column side and center of bolt to rod on the trans side.

 

[73azbronco]

you may need a longer lokar cable

I admit though, i have never seen a 4r70 or a lokar setup or a TV cable, just what I remember reading here over the decades.

 

[1buckeyefan1]

If the transmission is not in park, the output shaft will spin unless something stops it. Usually that something is the rear tires being attached to the ground. However, if the transfer case isn't connecting the trans output to the driveshaft that output shaft will spin.

There is a possibility that the input gear of the tcase could have been installed backwards. This would give no high range on the rear axle. It would act just like it was in neutral if the levers were in rear high. You wouldn't be able to drive it though until you engaged the front axle in high range.

So I had a chance today to install my longer lokar shift linkage rod. I tried a couple of different configurations, but got it locked in almost the only way it works.. and got the trans arm at 7:30 like the lokar instructions mention.

So I found that the only way to guarantee full park (pawl engagement) is to adjust the lokar linkage so the full 4r70w park is pinned to the 'lock' on Park on the flaming river column. If I adjust it past the FR column lock, it has a little slop and doesn't always fully depress the pawl. So basically, I have to 'latch' the full compression of the pawl via FR column lock on P. I originally had P on the transmission a little left of P on the column, you could ever so slightly move the column lever to the right and pull the pressure off the pawl. This has been adjusted and I have visually confirmed that the detents for the gears work correctly. My gear indicator on the column is off once I get past N, but I'll worry about that later.. pretty sure it wasn't going to line up with the 4R70W in the first place.

I tested it out and am still getting the pawl grind. A repeatable scenario is when I start in Park (pawl engaged) reverse, come to a complete stop, then try to go into park, then I immediately get the grind.

I'm 99% confident that this is because the output shaft is still spinning somehow, even though I'm completely stopped. I'm pretty sure this points to an issue with my transfer case not fully in gear or something that is allowing the output shaft of the 4r70w to keep spinning while I'm trying to engage the pawl?

I tested it out in 2-low and it worked for a bit, but then I eventually got the grind as well. Whenever I shifted into gear (R,D) in 2l, it jumped, leaving little tire marks)

I still do have a pretty high idle.. I'm chalking it up to still needing the 02 sensors hooked up.. but I'm hesitant to install the exhaust if I still need to take the transfer case off.

I'm at wits end here. I can't understand why I can move forward, backwards, etc (in 2h or 2L) But then the output shaft is still spinning when I come to a stop? I'm not 100% sure I didn't put the transfer case back together correctly.. but it doesn't compute that I can put it in motion if the transfer case is allowing the output shaft to spin?

Attached video is of my putting it into Park and the pawl fully locking. After latching/unlatching at least 20+ times, i'm pretty confident the pawl is doing its job. But it can't engage (grinds) when the output shaft is still spinning??

 

[1buckeyefan1]

There is a possibility that the input gear of the tcase could have been installed backwards. This would give no high range on the rear axle. It would act just like it was in neutral if the levers were in rear high. You wouldn't be able to drive it though until you engaged the front axle in high range.

So i was trying to find my assembly photos.. and stumbled across my old thread. Can you tell from the pics if I screwed it up?

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/mountaineer-explorer-5-0-swap.292774/post-3355319

 

[Viperwolf1]

So i was trying to find my assembly photos.. and stumbled across my old thread. Can you tell from the pics if I screwed it up?

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threads/mountaineer-explorer-5-0-swap.292774/post-3355319

It's right.

 

[Viperwolf1]

Maybe it's not the park pawl. There is no possible way for the output shaft to spin if you are stopped and the transfer case is in gear.

 

[Broncobowsher]

Maybe it's not the park pawl. There is no possible way for the output shaft to spin if you are stopped and the transfer case is in gear.

Except....
Transfer case input gear installed backwards and the shifter in 2WD. The input gear backwards will not engage the rear driveshaft in high range, even with the transfer case selected to be in gear. So you can have the transfer case in 2WD and the transmission output shaft spinning.

 

[1buckeyefan1]

Except....
Transfer case input gear installed backwards and the shifter in 2WD. The input gear backwards will not engage the rear driveshaft in high range, even with the transfer case selected to be in gear. So you can have the transfer case in 2WD and the transmission output shaft spinning.

This was my first guess also. But I have motion in both 2H and 2L and am still getting the grind when changing gears. Seems to be more prevalent when I try to move over to P, and then in N.

Maybe it's not the park pawl. There is no possible way for the output shaft to spin if you are stopped and the transfer case is in gear.

Any ideas on where to begin troubleshooting? I've got movement in 2H and 2L and still getting a slight grind in both. I'm pretty sure I can avoid the grind though if I stay away from P..which still correlates it to the pawl in my head? Could I have installed the torque converter incorrectly? It shifts great when going down the road, only seem to get the grind when i'm making quick, short shifts in/out of Park in my drive.

I'm tempted to pull my spare PCM out and see if it makes a difference in the idle and seemingly the quick lockup of the torque converter?

I also need to try it out in 4H/4L and see what i get.

 

[Viperwolf1]

Except....
Transfer case input gear installed backwards and the shifter in 2WD. The input gear backwards will not engage the rear driveshaft in high range, even with the transfer case selected to be in gear. So you can have the transfer case in 2WD and the transmission output shaft spinning.

Yes, but his install pics show it's on the correct way.

 

[Viperwolf1]

This was my first guess also. But I have motion in both 2H and 2L and am still getting the grind when changing gears. Seems to be more prevalent when I try to move over to P, and then in N.



Any ideas on where to begin troubleshooting? I've got movement in 2H and 2L and still getting a slight grind in both. I'm pretty sure I can avoid the grind though if I stay away from P..which still correlates it to the pawl in my head? Could I have installed the torque converter incorrectly? It shifts great when going down the road, only seem to get the grind when i'm making quick, short shifts in/out of Park in my drive.

I'm tempted to pull my spare PCM out and see if it makes a difference in the idle and seemingly the quick lockup of the torque converter?

I also need to try it out in 4H/4L and see what i get.

What's the history behind the 4R70W? Maybe it has some other issues inside.

You should probably make the idle speed problem a priority. You could just have something external to the trans rattling when the rpm changes.

 

[MonsterBIlly]

I did a 4r70w swap 4 years ago. I have had a lot of trouble with hard shifting. Especially in reverse. I have also had a problem tuning my sniper. I have had a tough time with my idle jumping around too.
I finally went ahead and purchased a separate TPS and installed it. So my trans does not use the same signal at the efi.
Holy crap. It runs like I always wanted it to. Shift out of park like a dream and idles and drives like I always wanted.
I know you are using a ford pcm. I recommend getting that dialed in perfectly.

 

[1buckeyefan1]

What's the history behind the 4R70W? Maybe it has some other issues inside.

You should probably make the idle speed problem a priority. You could just have something external to the trans rattling when the rpm changes.

The 4R70W came out of an 2001 mountaineer w/ 120k miles. I bought it from copart and drove it around for a couple of months before i tore it down. It ran/shifted great. Came from an old man who backed into a pole and his insurance company totaled it out.

I agree, the idle speed is my top concern right now. I was leaving little skid marks in my drive when it was hopping into gear in 2L. I'm also going to check for vacuum leaks.

I did a 4r70w swap 4 years ago. I have had a lot of trouble with hard shifting. Especially in reverse. I have also had a problem tuning my sniper. I have had a tough time with my idle jumping around too.
I finally went ahead and purchased a separate TPS and installed it. So my trans does not use the same signal at the efi.
Holy crap. It runs like I always wanted it to. Shift out of park like a dream and idles and drives like I always wanted.
I know you are using a ford pcm. I recommend getting that dialed in perfectly.

I had a chance to chat with my neighbor this weekend who happened to be on the original design team of the 4R70W up in Dearborn back in the day. I had them over for a beer and went through my troubleshooting and progression of the noise/issues. (didn't make noise for the first few weeks, then the idle got higher and the noise started) She also thinks its the high idle coming from the PCM likely contributing to my factors, and potentially double triple quadruple checking my lokar linkage to ensure it's absolutely falling completely into the detents.

I'm going to try and put my exhaust collectors (w/ bungs) on this weekend and hook up the 02 sensors and try to get the PCM to 're-learn' with the sensors monitoring the exhaust. I've then got an appt for the custom exhaust then next week and will see if the idle/noise improves once everything is hooked up. Does anyone know how many cycles/minutes/miles it takes for the Explorer PCM to re-adapt? I'm trying to resist pulling out my spare PCM to quickly 'reset' everything. I'm also getting a P1460 (wide open throttle a/c cutout circuit).. that I'd like to bounce off Gerry when I get ahold of him. I didn't request any wiring/configuration for AC, so unsure if related.

I also hit up the local speed shop (on3 performance) and found a guy that can review my tune once the exhaust is on and I give it some time to re-learn. I dropped Gerry a text, but assume he's still pretty busy.

 

[1buckeyefan1]

What's the history behind the 4R70W? Maybe it has some other issues inside.

You should probably make the idle speed problem a priority. You could just have something external to the trans rattling when the rpm changes.

Well, I got another set of eyes (ears) on it today and figured a couple of things out:

1.) my PCV came loose at the rear, which was causing the high idle. It was hard to see since the foam donut was covering it up. Plugged it back in and idling better.
2.) I'm pretty sure the noise is coming from the starter trying to engage when shifting between P and N?
3.) in the midst of my troubleshooting the engine suddenly shut and won't turn over now. I'm pretty sure it's electrical.. I'm guessing I blew a fuse somewhere. the starter solenoid clicks but no power to the starter to engage.

Despite all of this, i'm sorta happy since I think i figured out the source of the high idle and where the noise is coming from. However, I'm stumped and need to do a good bit of research on why the starter is trying to engage when I go into P and N? I'm guessing i have some sort of wiring or power going to the starter relative to the Neutral Safety Switch?

 

[Broncobowsher]

For grins, grab the crank pulley and try to push it in/out of the engine. Check the crankshaft endplay. Should only be a couple thousanths endplay. Maybe feel/hear it. Won't see it. If it is good anyway.

Small block Fords do like to kill thrust bearings. Not super common, but common enough to be worth checking.

 

[1buckeyefan1]

I think i finally got it figured out. I'm pretty sure i had a bad ignition switch (I had replaced it with a new one from a vendor). Pretty sure I had it wired up correctly, but when i started it up, the starter would remain engaged (wouldn't fully spring back to on). Then as I shifted across gears, the NSS would block it from engaging in R or D.. hence why I'd hear the grind in P & N. At least that's the best I can figure out at this point. I put the old starter back on as well as a new ignition switch and the grind hasn't returned yet. Crossing my fingers...

The bummer is that I killed a new Motorcraft mini starter in the process. I think it finally kicked the bucket and then stalled the engine out as it was engaged..