Mass Confusion Build. After 2 1/2 years It started!!

[71massbronco]

After the wife's dance school recital, things are now getting back to a dull roar. Got some time in on the bronco. I think I am going to be in need of a wrench and roast soon. I am slowly getting signs of life.

I located TDC to the best of my ability. Ended up using a pressure/vacuum gauge since I am a one man operation.

Today I went ahead and put in a new coil, new voltage regulator, just so the variables are taken out of the sequence.

Turned the motor over and got the "I really want to start but just can't pull it off" sound. Enough to put a tiny haze in the garage. Burning off 6 or 7 years of sitting maybe. Gave up before the battery was going to give up. Probably a missing something in the fuel delivery department. I suspect that I may have flooded it, or it wasn't getting enough. Didn't have time to investigate, as the wife informed me that the Chinese food needed to get picked up....and I love Crab Rangoon.

 

[dave67fd]

After the wife's dance school recital, things are now getting back to a dull roar. Got some time in on the bronco. I think I am going to be in need of a wrench and roast soon. I am slowly getting signs of life.

I located TDC to the best of my ability. Ended up using a pressure/vacuum gauge since I am a one man operation.

Today I went ahead and put in a new coil, new voltage regulator, just so the variables are taken out of the sequence.

Turned the motor over and got the "I really want to start but just can't pull it off" sound. Enough to put a tiny haze in the garage. Burning off 6 or 7 years of sitting maybe. Gave up before the battery was going to give up. Probably a missing something in the fuel delivery department. I suspect that I may have flooded it, or it wasn't getting enough. Didn't have time to investigate, as the wife informed me that the Chinese food needed to get picked up....and I love Crab Rangoon.

Sounds like she's close. Yea keep the battery as fresh as possible. Even if it seems ok it should be turning her over quick to start effectively, if not it's touch and go with getting her started. Double check your settings, spark etc..
I'm in on a trip your way...... and ditto on the Rangoon.... Good luck.

 

[71massbronco]

Can't seem to get it to fire so I pulled the plugs. Found some significant fowling of the plugs and this was before the motor fired consistantly. It has not started yet, almost got it running on it's own.

I have never had this motor started so I really don't know what I am dealing with. The rings could be completely shot as far as I know. I think I am going to take this to a mechanic and have it finished off professionally. I am too far along to completely screw this up by blowing up my engine inadvertently by doing something stupid.

 

[HGM]

I have been following, but forgotten many of the details. So, the answer may be somewhere in your previous posts.. I just thought I'd quickly mention that you double check the firing order.. If you are changing from a non HO to HO/351 firing order, it will give similar results to your starting issues.. Just verify the firing order matches the cam your running before spending money taking it to someone else..

 

[71massbronco]

I have been following, but forgotten many of the details. So, the answer may be somewhere in your previous posts.. I just thought I'd quickly mention that you double check the firing order.. If you are changing from a non HO to HO/351 firing order, it will give similar results to your starting issues.. Just verify the firing order matches the cam your running before spending money taking it to someone else..

From what I was told by the PO, this is a stock 302 motor. I verified the firing order, but will go out and do it again. So, HGM, how do I tell what cam I am running?

 

[tasker]

can always try the 351/302 HO order to see if it fires
1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (counter clockwise too)

 

[71massbronco]

can always try the 351/302 HO order to see if it fires
1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (counter clockwise too)

I think this is my next move. I will let you know it goes.

 

[dave67fd]

D, I think you may have already done this but go thru it again. Pull Spark Plug #1, rotate engine using rachet. Put your thumb over the spark plug hole (I use my pinky and actually feel the piston), when pressure pushes your finger off the hole or you feel it all the way at the top, you have the compression stroke of the engine, stop and look at the balancer, it will be nearing -0-, turn the engine to -0-, and drop in the distributor. The rotor should point directly at the #1 plug terminal on the cap. At this point your motor is at TDC and timing is at 0. Confirm your firing order, make sure the battery is at full charge, don't get too carried away with pumping the pedal and try to start it up, if you can keep running, get a timing light on it. Turn clockwise to advance timing.
__________________

 

[71massbronco]

D, I think you may have already done this but go thru it again. Pull Spark Plug #1, rotate engine using rachet. Put your thumb over the spark plug hole (I use my pinky and actually feel the piston), when pressure pushes your finger off the hole or you feel it all the way at the top, you have the compression stroke of the engine, stop and look at the balancer, it will be nearing -0-, turn the engine to -0-, and drop in the distributor. The rotor should point directly at the #1 plug terminal on the cap. At this point your motor is at TDC and timing is at 0. Confirm your firing order, make sure the battery is at full charge, don't get too carried away with pumping the pedal and try to start it up, if you can keep running, get a timing light on it. Turn clockwise to advance timing.
__________________

I used a pressure vaccum gauge and when it went to positive pressure, I stopped, physically looked in the sparkplug hole and verified the piston was up top. My problem is that my HB has NO timing marks on it. I have sanded all the way around and can't find a any. %)

I can't seem to maneuver around to hand turn and feel the hole at the same time, (although my wife may disagree) . Too much stuff in the way.

I won't pump the pedal per your advice. Also did not realize to advance it has to go clockwise. Like I said before, this is about the limit of my engine experience.

 

[71massbronco]

HGM, Tasker, Dave, I have come to the conclusion that you are men of men. I apparently have an HO and I don't even know what that means. Was out in the garage blowing up the the little lady's pool floatie and while waiting for the compressor to charge, decided to give it a try. Rearranged the wires and Voila! a rough idle almost immediately. I think I have some more tuning in my future, but now I know what the problem was. Please make a trip down south some time so I can buy you some beer, scotch, whatever. I am very relieved.

On a side note, had another Bronco dream last night....that I CUT it! Naah, I like it just like it is.

 

[HGM]

Glad it was that simple.... Remember, knowledge comes from ass kickings.....

 

[71massbronco]

So what is HO? High Output? I tried to google HO cam but came up nothing but a bunch of interesting porn sites. Before I got busted, decided to quit googling and ask here.

So now that I know this, what else would be different from the standard 302?

Now that you guys gave me my confidence back, Ok, now on to the next problem.

Now it won't idle and will only run at high RPM soon as i back off the pedal it gets rough and dies. I am assuming more carb tuning but where do I start?

 

[HGM]

HO is High Output for the 5.0/302... Basically, its using the 5.8/351 firing order which apparently is more efficient, cant give you much more than that.. The rest of the engine may be the same, but, you never know.. Heads, rockers, pistons..... ?? really not too big of a deal unless its injected..

Without timing marks, I suppose listening for idle quality and vacuum would be the next best option. Put a vac gauge on the intake and adjust the timing for your best idle.. Then adjust the carb for the most vacuum, little at a time, back and forth as needed.. Been 20+yrs, don't mess with that stuff anymore, but that's where I'd start...

 

[dave67fd]

D,
I will assume you have the original Motorcraft 2100 or similar. Carb tunining can be pretty basic but can be a pain especialy if there is a problem in one of the idle circuits, fuel pump/float or choke circuits but try starting here.

First bring the main idle screw adjustment up a bit to keep it running. This is located on the driver side of the carb near the linkage. before starting again adjust the two mixture screws located at the front and base of the carb. Screw them all the way in (not tight) and then back them out about 1 and 1/2 to two turns. This should put you at a close point where she should stay running. slowly adjust one screw at a time, in then out for highest idle then do the other. You can then go back and lower the main idle screw on the side to lower. Do this a couple times till she's running smooth. Take note on where the choke is at it should be just barely open. There are a few different slight variations for tuning but they all acheave the same results. You can hook a vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum and tune for max readingas well. Here's some more reading/viewing on it.

Also when she is at TDC find a reference point on the dampner( part of the block) and put a white paint mark so you know where it is. You can then buy some cheap timing tape and adhere it to the dampner.

http://www.ehow.com/how_8558094_adjust-motorcraft-2-barrels.html

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/63481-autolite-2100-carb-trouble.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCUibTkm3o

 

[71massbronco]

Thanks Dave! I will get to work on that.
Update on the firing order fiasco. I found a pic I took of the engine bay before teardown, and apparently it is NOT HO/351. Looks like it is wired 1542 factory. So I think it is back to TDC and and adjusting the carb. Yes it ran on the other firing order but that would explain some of the rough idle when letting off the gas, right?

 

[71massbronco]

The title of this build seems to be more applicable now more than ever.

I needed to address a small problem of a huge leak in my water pump. Took it off to investigate and I made the mistake of putting the gasket that came with the water pump on not really checking to see if it would line up with the block. I just assumed it was the right one, it was not. Hence the copious amounts of antifreeze gushing from the lower part of the housing. Luckily I found a gasket with the right pattern laying around in one of my parts bins.

So I took the radiator out, fan assembly, and while all that was out decided to re-check (yet again) for TDC now that I had easy access to the front of the engine. Used the ol' finger over the plug hole method this time and it worked like a charm. Re aligned the rotor, good to go.

Filled it with the wet stuff, and so far no leaks. Put the wires back to the 1452 firing order, gave it a crank and it is starting hard. Started but still not there and missing. Also think I have to rethink my PCV as there was alot haze and smoke coming from everywhere (valve covers, mainly) only after about 20 seconds of engine running at probably 2K rpm's.

The water pump that was sold to me (about 1 1/2 years ago) came with two extra holes on the bottom that my 302 doesn't have. You can see where the paint went through them on the block when I touched up the pump with a high temp paint.
See how there are two little "hills" on the bottom of the housing that aren't there on the pump? Did I get the right pump from the store?

 

[dave67fd]

The title of this build seems to be more applicable now more than ever.

I needed to address a small problem of a huge leak in my water pump. Took it off to investigate and I made the mistake of putting the gasket that came with the water pump on not really checking to see if it would line up with the block. I just assumed it was the right one, it was not. Hence the copious amounts of antifreeze gushing from the lower part of the housing. Luckily I found a gasket with the right pattern laying around in one of my parts bins.

So I took the radiator out, fan assembly, and while all that was out decided to re-check (yet again) for TDC now that I had easy access to the front of the engine. Used the ol' finger over the plug hole method this time and it worked like a charm. Re aligned the rotor, good to go.

Filled it with the wet stuff, and so far no leaks. Put the wires back to the 1452 firing order, gave it a crank and it is starting hard. Started but still not there and missing. Also think I have to rethink my PCV as there was alot haze and smoke coming from everywhere (valve covers, mainly) only after about 20 seconds of engine running at probably 2K rpm's.

The water pump that was sold to me (about 1 1/2 years ago) came with two extra holes on the bottom that my 302 doesn't have. You can see where the paint went through them on the block when I touched up the pump with a high temp paint.
See how there are two little "hills" on the bottom of the housing that aren't there on the pump? Did I get the right pump from the store?

D,
Those holes are not extra. They are threaded for the pump cover bolts. The pump cover bolts to the backside of the pump with two low profile head bolts. You should have got one gasket that goes between the pump and the cover and another one (a bit different than the cover gasket) for between the pump cover and the timing cover. If the bolts are not there it will leak again.

Gasket sealer on both sides between the pump and cover plate and sealer on both sides around the water passages only for the cover to timing cover.

The pic shows both the cover installed and the cover to block gasket.

 

[71massbronco]

D,
Those holes are not extra. They are threaded for the pump cover bolts. The pump cover bolts to the backside of the pump with two low profile head bolts. You should have got one gasket that goes between the pump and the cover and another one (a bit different than the cover gasket) for between the pump cover and the timing cover. If the bolts are not there it will leak again.

Gasket sealer on both sides between the pump and cover plate and sealer on both sides around the water passages only for the cover to timing cover.

The pic shows both the cover installed and the cover to block gasket.

Oh shix. Now I know what you are talking about. The plate yes got it. Man I am feeling kind of stupid right now.

 

[dave67fd]

Then that would make us all stupid. Wev'e all been there and we will be back again;D

Just make sure you get another gasket set. Although new and may work if your lucky, it's not worth the agrivation as it's been compressed already. Just my own experience but i prefer the black Indian gasket cement or the spray on red gasket spray.

Do you have the bolts for it? If not i can confirm the size. I think their 1/4-20 X 1/4" but has a special thin head style, maybe 1/2".

 

[71massbronco]

Then that would make us all stupid. Wev'e all been there and we will be back again;D

Just make sure you get another gasket set. Although new and may work if your lucky, it's not worth the agrivation as it's been compressed already. Just my own experience but i prefer the black Indian gasket cement or the spray on red gasket spray.

Do you have the bolts for it? If not i can confirm the size. I think their 1/4-20 X 1/4" but has a special thin head style, maybe 1/2".

Sweet. I will head down to autozoned tomorrow and get what I need gasket wise, and drop by the hardware store.

You da man.