RAN Trans Help

[vesparex]

So about a year ago I yanked the driveline to do some upkeep. Now getting around to installing. The output shaft on the trans is pulled out about 1/4". I tried meshing and nothing. Some googling yielded that there are needle bearings in the input shaft that if I didn't shift rev and first, upon separating they fall out.
What do I do? Can I remove the input to grease the needles and reinstall?

Duane

 

[jrussells]

I'm pretty sure your gears are just not meshing, i had the same problem when i took my trans out.

Those needle bearings are closer to a 1/2", so if the whole output shaft hasn't shifted that far then they shouldn't have been able to drop out.

You might be able to just wiggle the input and output shafts and get them to line up, but the best way to check everything would be to pull the pan off the top and look down in the case. You should be able to see how the gears are lining up and if there are any of those needle bearings in the bottom of the case.

If there aren't any bearings in the bottom, then the best course of action is probably gonna be wiggling the shafts together and maybe a little finessing on the shift arms to get it to slide back together. I wouldn't mess with the shift arms without taking the top pan off first though, that way you can see whats going on. If the shift collar doesn't line up with the teeth on the gear its trying to select, then it can push the whole shaft in or further out of the case.

 

[74 Bronco Billy]

Needle bearings

I agree, time to drain the T case, pull pan off, pull shaft completely out. Get some transmission assembly lube or petroleum jelly,(refrigerate first), put needle bearing in per T case assembly directions. They need to be perfectly in. Sometime the shaft will drop down in the T case, and to shift it up, you need to move it up with the fork the gear is sitting in. I'll try to send pictures later if you can't get it in.
Forrest

 

[74 Bronco Billy]

After rereading, are you talking about the output shaft of the C4 transmission, or that the input shaft to the transfer case? Pictures would help? Front or rear driveline was taken out? I'm assuming rear. If it's the t case, what I said before applies, if it's the C4, then no, different animal.

 

[DirtDonk]

RAN and his sig says '68 3-speed, so thinking he's still talking about the stock manual.
That correct vesparex?

And even though it's only sticking out 1/4" now, it could have easily yanked as far as it needed to at one point, let the bearings fall out, and is just now sitting where it won't go in farther.
So yes, while jrussells is correct in thinking it's possible you're just not meshing, it's WAY more possible that you've got a tans disassembly in your near future. Sorry 'bout that!

I've never had one that would not mesh with just a very tiny amount of messing about. Doesn't mean it's not possible. Just means I have not seen it myself.
If you're really playing with it and it just won't go back in, then I say you likely did drop the bearings.

Paul

 

[vesparex]

Thanks. Yes stock 3spd. No bearings in the case, yet. I will try wiggling more and hope.

Duane

 

[vesparex]

Oh and when I spin the input shaft the output spins too.

Duane

 

[jrussells]

Can you get us some pictures of everything down in there? I'm assuming you took the top off of it to look for the bearings.

Having the bearings fall out was definitely the most likely scenario, and that could still be the case. One of them could have fallen down and is now lodged in front of the output shaft, keeping it from going as far into the input shaft as it needs to be, but to check for that you've gotta take it apart, which isn't all that bad, but I figure it's better to exhaust any other possibility before you go into that.

Dirtdonk is right, it shouldn't take a whole lot to get the gears to mesh together either. When I first messed with mine, it was a bit sludgy which made it a good bit harder to actuate than after I took it apart and cleaned it though

I'm saying the shafts spinning together is caused either by one of the gear selector arms not being in neutral, or it's a direct result of the output shaft being shifted over 1/4" which I think is more likely. The shaft being shifted over 1/4 while the gear selectors are remaining in their same neutral spot could cause it to engage a gear enough to turn it.

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh and when I spin the input shaft the output spins too.

I "think" that's normal even for a discombobulated shaft. The input is turning the idler shaft, which in turn spins the output shaft. There is likely quite a bit of leeway before the output is actually disconnected from the idler, or even the input shafts.

I could be wrong on that, but that's what I remember.
Of course, if the shifters are in neutral and the shaft is spinning, that's not good!;D

(edit: sorry, walked away for half-an-hour and didn't see jrussell's reply. He's got you on the right track)

Paul

 

[vesparex]

Pics:

 

[vesparex]

Also, any opinions on the syncro condition is welcome too!

Duane

 

[broncodriver99]

It looks like the front synchro slider is slightly engaged/misaligned. This could cause it to hang on the bronze synchro ring which would cause the output to turn with the input. Try sliding the synchro hub back a little(it should be centered over the hub that it rides on)and see if you can get things to line up and the shaft should slide forward unless one of the needles had dropped down. It could also be that one of the synchro dogs between the slider and hub has gotten out of alignment and is causing some problems. Carefully slide the slider back until you can see the front edge of the steel dogs and make sure they are all aligned. Don't go too far as they are a bear to get back in properly if they come out.

The bronze synchro rings themselves look to be in good shape. Still sharp and no rounded ends.

 

[vesparex]

It looks like the front synchro slider is slightly engaged/misaligned. This could cause it to hang on the bronze synchro ring which would cause the output to turn with the input. Try sliding the synchro hub back a little(it should be centered over the hub that it rides on)and see if you can get things to line up and the shaft should slide forward unless one of the needles had dropped down. It could also be that one of the synchro dogs between the slider and hub has gotten out of alignment and is causing some problems. Carefully slide the slider back until you can see the front edge of the steel dogs and make sure they are all aligned. Don't go too far as they are a bear to get back in properly if they come out.

The bronze synchro rings themselves look to be in good shape. Still sharp and no rounded ends.

Thanks, will try this tonight. Also, 300k miles and 3rd owner. I know the second owner and he owned since 1986. Original trans, no rebuild. Damn. Tough transmissions!

Duane

 

[DirtDonk]

Very tough. Very quiet. And pretty smooth shifting as well.
Not "fast" shifting by any means, but smooth as any car transmission usually is.

Just make sure you change the gear lube once in awhile! Which it looks like someone did at some point, or after 300k we likely would not be looking at such a relatively clean trans for it's age.

Paul

 

[vesparex]

Some more pics in different gears:

 

[vesparex]

 

[DirtDonk]

Well, I can't say anything from the pics this time. But thanks for so many pics though!
Can't see the trouble from here (I can't at least) and would need to see a more close-up shot of the blocking rings/synchronizers to see if they need replacing. They actually look pretty good from here, but "here" is too far away.
And frankly, if I was tearing into a gear box with unknown mileage (or mileage known to be high) I would just buy all new stuff for it.
I had a distinct advantage of time when I did mine. The total cost for every bearing, bushing, seal and thingy was just over $45 bucks and I was back on the road in fine style. I'm sure the same parts are probably $145 by now! But it might just be worth it "while you're in there" if you're planning to keep the trans and Bronco for awhile still

However, if you're confident that it shifted decently enough for your uses and you just want to get it back on the road, I'd say you're wastin' daylight man!!
If it still won't go back together after all this fiddling about, you likely have at least one roller dislodged and in the way from you getting it pushed all the way in. If so, time to tear it apart.

If you do, I would also have to say that, AT THE VERY LEAST, you should replace the main input and output bearings. They're probably 307L's or something very similar and are not that expensive.
It's just what I like to call cheap insurance. Insurance from you having to do this again anytime soon. Hence the recommendation for the other parts as well. Seals at a minimum.

Good luck.
Hopefully someone with a better eye (or two?) can see something easy, but it's not looking good at this point.

Paul

 

[broncodriver99]

There is definitely an abnormal gap between the input shaft gear and the front synchro, you should not see that much of the blocker ring(see picture). Looks like you may have dropped a needle or it may be jammed in there crooked. You don't have to disassemble the whole transmission to get to them, you should be able to pull just the input shaft and correct it. You can put the needles back in with grease or assembly lube and they will hold while you reassemble.

I don't see any reason to dig into that transmission other than fixing whatever is going on with the input shaft roller bearings. The gears look great as do the synchro blocker rings. It was definitely driven lightly and not power shifted. I see no reason to replace any parts, just making unnecessary work for yourself. The only thing I would replace is the input shaft seal and the gaskets.

 

[vesparex]

There is definitely an abnormal gap between the input shaft gear and the front synchro, you should not see that much of the blocker ring(see picture). Looks like you may have dropped a needle or it may be jammed in there crooked. You don't have to disassemble the whole transmission to get to them, you should be able to pull just the input shaft and correct it. You can put the needles back in with grease or assembly lube and they will hold while you reassemble.

I don't see any reason to dig into that transmission other than fixing whatever is going on with the input shaft roller bearings. The gears look great as do the synchro blocker rings. It was definitely driven lightly and not power shifted. I see no reason to replace any parts, just making unnecessary work for yourself. The only thing I would replace is the input shaft seal and the gaskets.

This is what I was hoping to hear. So I just need to remove the 4 bolts?

 

[broncodriver99]

This is what I was hoping to hear. So I just need to remove the 4 bolts?

Yes, then the retainer will slide off and you will see the input shaft and bearing underneath. The input shaft and bearing may slide right out which is uncommon, but is worth a try. I usually use a brass drift from the inside and work the outer ring of the bearing alternating side to side and it should come out. It has been a while since I have been in a 3 speed but on the 4 speeds there is a flat spot on the small synchro gears on the input shaft that you have to line up with the countershaft gears for it to have enough clearance to come out. The 3 speed may have more room so it may not be needed. Just go slow in case you do have some loose needle bearings. Way easier to catch them before they drop down in the case then fish them out.