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Sudden rough idle

DeepC73

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Dec 25, 2020
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224
I was driving my 73 Bronco today around town. I drive it every day with no issues for the last year. I stopped at a light and it died. It started right back up, but wouldn’t stay running unless I’m on the gas. Currently it will idle, but very low RPM’s and it’s bouncing around. I moved the timing around, but it didn’t change too much. I checked the few vacuum lines with no success. It kinda sounds like it is missing. I pulled the plug wires off the distributor one by one. A few of them didn’t change the idle at all. Several of them caused it to die immediately and a couple of them caused it to run rougher. Any help is VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
 

DirtDonk

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is the engine all stock? Or has it been upgraded with different carb and ignition components perhaps?
A sudden change of habits like this with a '73 could be as simple as a vacuum leak, or the high-idle solenoid dying or becoming unplugged, or a previously adjusted choke having gone down one more notch that was unknown and holding off for all the previous years.
If it's a points ignition, something could have slipped in the distributor.

Still a few things to check then. You've already started with a couple of good tests. The visual inspection of hoses is good, but it takes a spray can of something used around the engine sometimes to find the smaller leaks that are in a gasket or other sealed surface. If you have not done that before let us know and we can walk you through it.
maybe it just needs a tune-up?

Paul
 
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DeepC73

DeepC73

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Dirt, it’s the original 302. The carb has been changed to a Holley 350 and it has electronic ignition. I sprayed starting fluid all around the carb and the vacuum manifold where all of the lines connect with no change at all. Where is the high idle solenoid located?
 

B RON CO

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Hi, since you pulled the plug wire and some cylinders responded and other did not I would check the ignition tune up. Could be the distributor cap or possibly bad wires. If you can't remember your last tune up it is probably time. If you are still running the points and condenser these parts usually last 10,000 miles so take a look there to. If you do a complete tune up you might as well run a compression test while the plugs are out. Good luck
 

DirtDonk

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Starting fluid might not be the safest method, but it should work great at finding leaks! Sounds like you're good there then. Kind of a relief, since finding and fixing them is often a pain.

The carb solenoid is probably no longer present with your swapped in Holley carb. But if there it would be a small cylinder thingy (about twice the size of an ignition condenser) with an arm pushing up against the throttle linkage at the carb. It's there mostly on a '73 and earlier model to be an "anti-dieseling" solenoid that drops the idle way down when you turn the key OFF. Shutting the carb that way keeps it from running on.

So a low idle could be something clogging up the carburetor passages, or the choke has some kind of fault that is letting the idle kick down a notch.
Time to get under the hood, pop the air cleaner off and inspect the linkage. If all it needs is you to turn the screw a bit, great. But more than likely it sounds like something to take care of with more effort. Like finding a fault in the ignition.

Maybe the plug wires are getting old. Maybe the coil is getting weak, or the resistor wire is building up too much resistance. Lots of things to check at this point.
The original factory ignition coils were extremely reliable. But they are 50+ years old now, so no telling without testing.

Paul
 
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DeepC73

DeepC73

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I’m not sure what type of ignition it is. I forgot to mention the coil is only 6 months old also. I’ll add a pic of the distributor. I cleaned out the float jet, but haven’t gone any deeper than that on the carb. If I turn up the idle screw a turn it smoother out a little, but still makes my dash shake a bit. I also cleaned all of the contacts in the distributor. Is it normal for it not to stall when I removed the different plug wires like I mentioned above? I wouldn’t think so. That leads me towards the ignition system. I can’t find a crack in the distributor cap either.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0b8y_AwqcIJgIinWkh_qnIgXg
 

DirtDonk

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Sometimes cracked caps are hard to see. And yes, you're correct and as Ron was saying the lack of change indicates that either those cylinders have plugs that are not firing for one reason or another, or you have internal problems with those cylinders.
But we won't go there yet!

We'll need to see inside the distributor to make sure just what the trigger mechanism is, but on the outside you have Ford Dura Spark stuff. The wider cap and it's associated rotor, and the old factory "horseshoe" connector on the coil are factory type from '75 through whenever they got rid of distributors.
But it could still be a stock old distributor with an Accel, or Mallory, or Pertronix Ignitor points conversion kit, or whatever conversion in there. Including just a fully swapped-in Dura Spark. But to that end, what wires come out of the distributor, and is there a separate ignition control module on a fender or wheel well anywhere?

Paul
 

B RON CO

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Hi, that looks like a Ford Duraspark electronic distributor. They are very good. I would check a couple of spark plugs. If the wires are bad you should see them arcing in the dark. Good luck
 
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DeepC73

DeepC73

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DeepC73

DeepC73

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Hi, that looks like a Ford Duraspark electronic distributor. They are very good. I would check a couple of spark plugs. If the wires are bad you should see them arcing in the dark. Good luck
I don’t see any arcing. In my experience, which is limited, I can usually hear them arcing as well.
 

gnpenning

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I have more questions than answers.
Just a point of clarification, when you pulled the plug wires did you pull from the spark plug side or the distributor side? The way I read it you pulled the distributor side??

The end result should be similar, when you pull the wire the spark is looking is looking for some place to go, so you should direct the wire to ground. On the distributor side it could go to one of the other cylinders unless you directed the spark to ground. That large cap should help, but the spark will try to go somewhere.

You can use a ohm meter on the wires that didn't change RPM along with the plugs of those cylinders. Be sure to flex the wires while you test.
 

DirtDonk

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I also replaced the ignition control module at the same time.
There are three wires coming out of the distributor, orange, tan and black.
Confirmed by both your description and most definitely by the pics. Ford Dura Spark. And a pretty vintage one at that!
Be curious if yours is a very late production '73, but most likely and judging by the wiring it appears to have been swapped in by a PO.

Your problem could still be carburetor OR ignition (or even something oddball like a broken valve spring or bent pushrod), but at least we know more about your rig.
Unfortunately an ignition module or coil being new is not a guarantee of either of them working for long. It's a sad state of affairs when it comes to the quality and longevity of even the more expensive supposedly better parts these days. But the fact that you still have spark is at least a good sign.

I would do the suggested and check the ohms readings on every plug wire, concentrating on the ones that did not make a difference. Spark plugs too, but wires especially.
Personally with my old habits I'd do a full tune-up and replace all the standard wear items, including cap, rotor, wires and plugs. If that doesn't help, then I'd have all these nice spares to use the next time. But I realize that not everyone is keen on building up a massive supply of partly-used-but-still-serviceable parts for storage and later use.
Hence the need for a multi-meter in your collection. If you have one, you can check the wires, the stator inside the distributor and coil. Then replace anything that's sketchy or unknown. If you don't know how old your plug wires and cap and rotor are for example, they're probably ready to get replaced.

The stator is measured by disconnecting the distributor and measuring resistance between the Orange and Purple wires (or in your case, the two non-black wires). You're looking for a reading between 400 and 700 ohms. Anything near the limits, or over them, means it's time to replace the stator.
The cap and rotor are easy and cheap enough to just replace.
The coil has a value too, but I don't know what it is. There are generic values, but it might help to know exactly which coil you bought.
Not sure how to test an ignition control module, but it's probably fine since you have spark.

If the engine would stay running you could check the voltage at the ignition coil's positive side at the Red w/green wire. Should be between 7 and 9 volts after running for a few minutes. Maybe you can check with just the key in the ON position as long as you don't leave it on too long. Just a couple of minutes is probably safe.
Don't want to overheat the coil.

Alternately you can check the ohms of the same Red w/green wire between the ignition switch and the coil. Someone here again will have to tell you the value you're looking for. I don't know and have never had to test one (knock on wood!) so far.

Back to the carburetor, there are probably still things to check. With the Ford carb you can take the top off and peek inside pretty easily. With some, you can even remove the top and run the engine to see what's going on inside! That's a real cool thing to do if you ever get the chance. Watching it do it's entire process from the inside while the top is off and engine running is just cool beans.

Back to the ignition, if you have not already you might pull some plugs to make sure they're not fouled up with oil, or soot from running too rich.

Don't have any further suggestions at the moment. It's basically all up to you of course, since you're there turning the wrenches and screwdrivers. But we're out here yelling encouragement to help!

Paul
 
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DeepC73

DeepC73

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Paul,
Thanks for the VERY in depth explanation and direction. Also, thanks to everyone who has jumped in to help as well. I will get on this and a few other ideas tonight or tomorrow as time allows, the weekend’s over and it’s time to go to work. I have a multimeter, I was an electrician in the Navy earlier in my career. As for the distributor and wires, I’m just going to cut to the chase and purchase new ones. It will stay running, However, I do have one concern. After I turn it off I can hear fuel continue to pour into the intake for about 15 to 20 seconds. I’ve heard it in the past when the float seat would get stuck before I replaced it. That makes me think that maybe it is getting too much fuel and drowning out the plugs from firing. How would this be happening? I have removed the float jet/seat and checked it. It is operating correctly. What in the carburetor could have just suddenly be causing this to happen while driving?
 

gnpenning

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I have more questions than answers.
You need to look down the throat of the carb and verify that fuel is actually leaking.

Something between the needle and the seat not allowing it to seal and cut off the flow of fuel.

Depending on how much extra fuel you should be getting black smoke and a smell of fuel out of the exhaust.
 

Rustytruck

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Does your engine have a spacer plate under the carb and a vacuum canister on the back side? if yes that is an EGR valve it opens when warmed up and driving when you close the carb to stop that vales slams shut if it stays open the engine will stumble at idle

 

DirtDonk

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What they said. And don’t just replace an ignition system that is working! You will just add more potential problems to diagnose.
Of course, if you do suspect a particular part is failing, that’s different.
 

Rustytruck

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Paul,
Thanks for the VERY in depth explanation and direction. Also, thanks to everyone who has jumped in to help as well. I will get on this and a few other ideas tonight or tomorrow as time allows, the weekend’s over and it’s time to go to work. I have a multimeter, I was an electrician in the Navy earlier in my career. As for the distributor and wires, I’m just going to cut to the chase and purchase new ones. It will stay running, However, I do have one concern. After I turn it off I can hear fuel continue to pour into the intake for about 15 to 20 seconds. I’ve heard it in the past when the float seat would get stuck before I replaced it. That makes me think that maybe it is getting too much fuel and drowning out the plugs from firing. How would this be happening? I have removed the float jet/seat and checked it. It is operating correctly. What in the carburetor could have just suddenly be causing this to happen while driving?
float level too high or needle and seat failing. hows your fuel pressure.
 
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DeepC73

DeepC73

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Dec 25, 2020
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224
I replaced the rotor and distributor cap with new. I metered all of the plug wires and all are well within acceptable range (4-7.5k). I took all of the plugs out and cleaned them. They all looked about like the attached pic. It ran a little better, but definitely didn’t solve the issue. I have looked down the carburetor repeatedly and don’t see any flowing of fuel at all. It will idle, but quite rough. It smooths out significantly when I press the accelerator. I don’t have the solenoid on the back of the carburetor like mentioned earlier. I’m thinking maybe something is clogging one of the idle jets or passages in the carburetor, but that’s just a guess. I’m still open for suggestions. This is killing me. I hate it when I can’t figure things out. Thanks again folks!



https://share.icloud.com/photos/037Ih1XHbnrxFoiO71Wm7L9pw
 
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