Timing help needed

[SDlivin]

I'm going to say either your balancer marks are off or your timing gears were not lined up properly when installed. I'd double check your TDC against the timing marks/pointer.
Have you tried running with the higher idle speed(10 ATDC setting) does it make any differance? Whats the vaccum reading at higher idle and is it steady?

One way or the other if the timing makrs are incorrect the engine should still run fine. Now if the timing gears are incorrect or you have a ignition problem or vacuum leak then you wont get it to run correctly. Vacuum leaks can occur on the inside of the intake and are very hard to detect. Although they usually allow some oil to be sucked in so one or more spark plugs may be slightly fouled.

Runs fine at the higher idle speed (10ATC) except the engine run-on problem is then constant when trying to shutoff. Also, Vacuum does increase and stay steady at the higher idle, between 15-20 depending on how high the idle.

I'll double check my TDC, against the timing marks for the 30th time, I swear it sits at 0 when I initially set-it and I point the dizzy rotor as close, if not right on the #1 cylinder. Then when I start it and check timing w. light, I'm at the ATC side of things.

I'll also pull all the plugs and see if any are fouled, and or what condition they are in. I cleaned them good before putting them back in originally.

 

[SDlivin]

Something doesn't sound quite right SD. If you can move it even one tooth, but still can't get it to a point BTDC, something's not reading correctly.
In my mind's eye, that 3" of movement is way more than the distance between one plug wire and the next. And that's 45° of crank rotation, or time for the next cylinder to fire!
Maybe your estimate was off slightly, but even still, one tooth of shaft displacement, or two inches of rotation is a LOT to work with.
Something's not reading correctly. Either you're not really getting a tooth's movement, or something electronic is whacked (which it doesn't sound like is possible), or something else I'm not able to think of.

Can you unplug your timing adjuster? If so, it should just to to a zero value, correct? That way you can see only what initial timing you've set in yourself, and have no electronic wizardry messing with your mind.

Give it a try anyway. And after all this back-and-forth, can you post up some pics of your setup?

Paul

Might be lost in the translation.. Basically if I have the dizzy to the far right it can go and it idles low there, I move the rotor 1 tooth counterclockwise, and now my low idle when my dizzy sits towards the far left. By doing this I am not really accomplishing anything, I am just changing how I can adjust my timing by moving the diz. With 1 way, I can go from a low idle to a High idle, a tooth over, now I am at a low idle to an even lower idle, opposite of the I can get a high idle to an even higher idle. Theoretically I think I could accomplish the same thing by moving the plugs by 1 either clockwise or counter clock.
Clear as mud?

I'll look over the MSD diagrams, I think I can just unhook it and run with just the MSD 6al box and not the timing controller. Good idea there.... The less screwing with it the better, until I can get it dialed.

Pics forthcoming tomorrow.
Thanks.

 

[357Bronco]

How are you checking TDC? I use a piston stop, make my own marks and pointer, and start from there.

 

[SDlivin]

How are you checking TDC? I use a piston stop, make my own marks and pointer, and start from there.

Basically just put my finger over the #1 plug hole and feel for the air to push out so I know I am on the correct stroke, then I put a small metal bent rod on the hole that sits on the piston top, slowly advance the crank and watch the metal rod, as it starts moving I know I am getting to TDC, when it stops moving I know I am at TDC, and then If I keep going it starts moving again on the down stroke.
Matches up with the '0' mark on the damper...

Of course going to double,triple check that again today.

 

[markperry]

Basically just put my finger over the #1 plug hole and feel for the air to push out so I know I am on the correct stroke, then I put a small metal bent rod on the hole that sits on the piston top, slowly advance the crank and watch the metal rod, as it starts moving I know I am getting to TDC, when it stops moving I know I am at TDC, and then If I keep going it starts moving again on the down stroke.
Matches up with the '0' mark on the damper...

Of course going to double,triple check that again today.

Just because you feel air moving out of the cylinder doesn't mean it is at TDC, you could be 180 out....When you think you are at TDC you should be able to feel the top of the piston with a small screw driver!

 

[SDlivin]

Just because you feel air moving out of the cylinder doesn't mean it is at TDC, you could be 180 out....When you think you are at TDC you should be able to feel the top of the piston with a small screw driver!

Hence the small little bent rod.

 

[markperry]

Sorry! I need too learn to read!

 

[SDlivin]

Success!!!!

Sorry! I need too learn to read!

No worries... Little metal small bent rod isn't actually a technical term/tool.


SUCCESS!! Okay so re-stabbed the dizzy for the umpteenth, 30th some odd time and looky there, runs great!
Check Timing, sitting at 10 BTC!
Vacuum at idle is now @ 19 !
Engine actually shuts off with out a hint of run-on....

Okay so last problem.. I hope..
Everyting seems to be running good, except when I press on the gas, took it for a test spin around the neighborhood and if I give it more then 5-10% throttle, I get this Tin Can Rattle sound like it's starting to get anemic on me.
Any suggestions for this?

Thanks again for everyone's help! I really don't know why it took that many stabs to find the sweet spot, but low and behold.

WOOOHOOO! back in the saddle again.....

 

[jw0747]

when you give it 5-10% throttle does it accelerate smoothly even though you hear a tin-can rattle or does it hesitate and sputter? can you tell if the tin-can rattle might be the engine pinging? could be several things.

 

[SDlivin]

when you give it 5-10% throttle does it accelerate smoothly even though you hear a tin-can rattle or does it hesitate and sputter? can you tell if the tin-can rattle might be the engine pinging? could be several things.

It does sound like the engine is pinging. It doesn't sputter nor really hesitate, it just doesn't go like I think it should. 'dirty' is the word I would use to describe how it feels when it pings away.

Accelerates fine, when I keep it under the 'ping' mark, just slowly because I'm not giving it much gas.

 

[broncnaz]

Back the timing off a little.

 

[SDlivin]

Back the timing off a little.

Backed it off as far as I could, vacuum advance hits the serp bracket.
Based on the timing light I am using, with vacuum plugged at dizz, It's running at 19 degrees. To explain, if I move the dial onm my timing light to 19, I end up at '0' TDC on the damper mark.

What do I want to be running at? 10 ?

 

[broncnaz]

10-12 is usually good basically you want it not to ping when driving and still be able to start it easily. To much timing causes pining and hard starting especailly when the engine is hot.
So you'll probably need to pull the dizzy angain and back it off one tooth or so to get some more adjustability.

 

[DirtDonk]

That little extra advance (from 10 to 19) when you hook up the vacuum line means one of two things. Either you have it on the wrong port (not likely, or it'd peg the thing at more like 25-30 degrees I would think), OR, your carb's throttle plates are not seated all the way down to their proper idle position.
When hooked to the ported fitting, you really shouldn't have enough vacuum signal at the hose to move the timing almost 10 degrees. Yeah, I know, that's why they always say to remove the hose to check timing, but in a perfect world, you shouldn't have to.

To verify proper orientation, simply watch the timing marks with the light while you blip the throttle. If the timing retards every time you open the throttle, you're on the wrong port. If it advances, you're on the right port.
I'm thinking that being on the wrong port wouldn't cause your symptoms anyway, but like everything else, it can't hurt to verify correctness.

What is your idle speed with the choke off all the way, and after fully warming up?
Just wondering if you can reduce the throttle opening and gain some of your idle speed back through adjusting the idle-air mixture screws.

Another thing to try is to just disconnect and plug the vacuum hose. Drive it again and see if it pings/rattles. If it changes, or gets better, keep testing different settings to see if you can find a happy medium. Maybe look down the little fitting, or stick an Allen wrench in there to see if there is an adjustment. I forget which way is less advance, and which way is more, but maybe you've got too much vacuum advance working against you?

Another reason it's "funny", as in strange, is that with a little too much advance, you usually see it under a more heavy load than you're applying. With just that little bit of throttle doing it so badly, it's more than usual for simply too much advance.
But hey, it can't hurt to keep reducing the timing a bit until you find a sweet spot.

Good luck.

Paul

 

[SDlivin]

Well problem is that I can't turn the dizzy anymore to retard the timing, the vacuum advance is hitting the serp bracket.
The farthest I can get it (with the vac adv hitting the bracket) is 19' @ idle with Vacuum ports plugged.

I haven't timed it with vacuum ports connected yet.

I did drive it with the vac adv plugged and no noticeable difference.

It still runs and pulls really good, which is keeping me happy for the short time.

1st gear it doesn't ping too bad, but it does if I get on it. 2nd gear pings if I give it more then a 1/4 throttle, and 3rd the same.

After reading others threads where where You (dirtdonk), and Broncnaz have responded, it appears the Magic # for timing w/ vac plugged that I am looking for is 12', with the vac adv and mech adv making the rest up to 3k rpm @ 34' advance.

I will try screwing with the dizzy 1 more time, moving it over 1 tooth, to see if I can clear some more room so the vac advance unit doesn't hit the serp bracket. If all else fails, I might have to carve a sizeable chunk out of the serp bracket to give me an extra 1/2inch or so of clearance. I think that would do it, but this is my last option... Don't want to be taking stuff off at this point.

Thanks again folks.

 

[DirtDonk]

We just did that on an Exploder serp setup to clear the TFI module on an EFI setup. Not a big deal. Easy for me to say though, since I didn't wield the grinder. Only took a few minutes though, and the deed was done. No clearance issues now.

Wondering though. You say you can't get it down below 19° now? But it was at 10° when you started. Is something maybe sticking inside the distributor?
Is this a new, semi-old, or of unknown age distributor? If anything but new, perhaps a little trip down under the pickup plate with some Chemtool and WD-40 might free things up a bit.
If that's not the issue, how'd you get the 10 degree reading the first time I'm wondering?

One answer, just leads to more questions it seems.
Hang in there anyway!

Paul

 

[SDlivin]

We just did that on an Exploder serp setup to clear the TFI module on an EFI setup. Not a big deal. Easy for me to say though, since I didn't wield the grinder. Only took a few minutes though, and the deed was done. No clearance issues now.

Wondering though. You say you can't get it down below 19° now? But it was at 10° when you started. Is something maybe sticking inside the distributor?
Is this a new, semi-old, or of unknown age distributor? If anything but new, perhaps a little trip down under the pickup plate with some Chemtool and WD-40 might free things up a bit.
If that's not the issue, how'd you get the 10 degree reading the first time I'm wondering?

One answer, just leads to more questions it seems.
Hang in there anyway!

Paul

No...no... no... I was only inquiring as to WHAT my timing should be when I referenced the 10', for some reason I thought that was the magic number...
Once I got it on the right side of '0' BTC, The lowest I can get it is 19'.

As for the clearance, I think the TFI module is a little smaller, or sticks out less, then my vac adv unit. It looks like I'd have to grind out a good 2 inch by inch section. Probably will not affect it structurally, but I'd have to take a lot of stuff off to be able to get that bracket off again.... Would rather not go that route if I don't have to... I'll try restabbing a few more times, If I can't get it to go.... Breakin out the grinder.

 

[DirtDonk]

Yeah, we did it with the bracket still on the truck too. Kind of a brain fart on my part. I knew about the "possibility" of it interfering, but like to live dangerously, with other people's stuff.

Ok, gotcha now. so either you're at 20 ATDC or 19 BTDC? Yikes, that sure is a tiny bit of adjustment you got there bud. I realize the almost 40 degree spread is due to jumping over a tooth or two on the shaft, but man, you would think you could get it closer anyway.
And no, if I'm not mistaken, the TFI module is WAY bigger (longer) than a vacuum advance can. Are you running a GM HEI style setup by any chance? That might 'splain things in that case.

Anyway, do whatever you have to. That 19 is just too high, as you figured. If you can get it down to 10 or 12, you should be in fat-city. Now I know why they make fancy distributors with rotor-phasing and body-to-plate adjustments!

Good luck.

Paul