TRUE "One wire" alternator...grrrrrrrr!

[Offroadchick]

I'll try to make this short....and also say "howdy" as a new member, though I was here a long time ago.
Okay...I take my beloved vehicle to a dedicated bronco shop (won't mention names...but, they WERE very nice. Unfortunately, as a woman, I'll never like ANY mechanic. ). I think these guys did try to do too much in one day, being overly helpful. I started picking out poor crimps they made when they started in with my wiring "job" (which was in progress...and, no gremlins...and, I was getting around fine. I ended up rolling down the mountain home, since back they were after the shop visit). I mean, I shouldn't see wire showing at the crimp from the alternator, nor a clamp made around wires that actually grounded a hot wire with the bolt from the clamp (thank you, but I don't need these "extra things" done for me...just the work I asked for). You simply can't win.
Still, they were nothing compared to the one mechanic who actually used electrical tape to hold some type of clamp that hit the brake switch/button. The tape melted in the summer heat, of course, and down the clamp fell. Instant battery drainage. That's when I decided to start doing things myself...I couldnt do worse than THAT!

Anyway...they put a true one wire alternator on her. My fault, I should've been clearer, but since their site only advertises a one wire that also has the green/red exciter wire, I thought that was what I was picking up the next day...it's a 100 amp'er, and I'v read nothing but bad things about true one wire alternators...of course, they are "self exciting", and must reach a certain rpm before the alternator kicks in. From what I understand, at idle, they don't charge, headlights dim (the reason I wanted an more powerful alternator in the first place), yada yada.

I just installed a voltmeter this morning, and sure enough, it's been running on the battery way too often...explains a lot. I thought it was simply the desert heat making the starter a bit "cranky." Or actually, not cranky, since it has difficulty starting after a short drive. Like, five miles. I just replaced the starter (another "first"), and it does get very hot next to that edelbrock manifold (which I read somewhere gets hotter than others...or, i could've dreamt it in my sleep...who knows?). I've considered getting one of those thermoshield wraps. ANYONE HAVE LUCK WITH THOSE HELPING IN THAT DEPARTMENT?

I've completely rewired my system, using the online C.S.I. manual from painlesswiring.com's site (they should charge admission...you can learn a lot from those manuals). And, yes, I wish I'd just bought one of their wiring harnesses instead of tackling it myself. The only upside is that I've learned a lot about my vehicle and electrical in general. I have mucho time on my hands, too.

Presently, I don't have the alternator hooked up as they did from the shop...at the starter relay. Instead, I have a 12 gauge wire going from it to a maxi fuse (70 amps), which is on the same side of the fuse as a new main power wire going to the ignition and push button starter I installed. The other side of the maxi fuse hooks to the starter relay, which of course, the battery hooks to.

The main power wire is also spliced off at a junction to a new fuse box, from which my stereo, brakes, etc, exit. There's still one spot at the junction box from which my headlights will hook up...then I'll be done. Whew. I've gotten used to driving in the day time (and lucky the police feel sorry for me, as I have driven at various times lacking a LOT of things that should be lighting up...and praying I make it home before dusk since those healights still need hooking back up....).

Please, someone tell me something good about these alternators to keep me from going to a mechanic and getting the one I really wanted, or, if it should be hooked up differently. It must be my wiring. I thought the summer heat was the reason it was having a hard time starting after a short drive, but now I realize I am running on the battery WAY too often, looking at the voltmeter.

I've gotten lots of suggestions, i.e., turning the idle up, etc, but to me that's a band aid fix. I could put the wire from the alternator back directly on the starter relay, but I wanted to keep it as close to the painless diagram as possible. I was reluctant to change what the shop did, but I made the wire as short as possible...and the manual said it was "okay." I'm at the point where I believe what I read over what anyone says, since everyone has a different opinion. BUT, any suggestions are welcome, believe me.
Thanks, guys!
P.S. And, thanks for answering a lot of questions I've seen before...I actually had to "rejoin" today in order to see how someone had wired their own one wire alternator, so everything is helpful and appreciated.

 

[Viperwolf1]

Welcome back. Now, what exactly was your question?

Sorry but I read slow and can't keep up with your fast typing.

 

[rplivin]

I'm lost?

 

[broncnaz]

The one wire alternator is not all that bad but yes you do have to rev the engine to get it to excite and start charging. I got one on my tractor I just start it up then rev the engine once up to about 2000 RPM then let it idle again and the alternator charges. I would think that with normal driving your alternator would charge fine. Maybe its ad or your battery is getting bad.
Here this link may help you as its basically what you need to know. http://mightymo.org/Proj_OneWire.html

 

[Cobra11]

so what shop was it????

 

[NY-Bronco]

You must be quite hot judging by that story ;D (Sorry cant help myself)

 

[eric0o1]

are you saying that you have a 12 gauge wire connected to the output of your alternator w/ a 70 amp maxi fuse? If so, way too small of a wire. With a 100 amp alt, that wire needs to be an 8 gauge or larger. Also, I designed the C.S.I harness and wrote the C.S.I manual.

 

[Offroadchick]

It's good to be back....

Sorry, fellas.... I am wordy as possible, so if I have a specific question, I always put it in bold, so you all can skip my meandering prose. I've got too much info in my head about this vehicle and am in the middle of a half dozen projects at the moment...today's drilling and installation of the volt meter was enough to call it a day. Wish I'd bought a tachometer while I was at it, considering my alternator issue.

Eric, was it? Should I send a check to your fav charity? %) I've found your manuals invaluable...like I said, wish I'd ordered it or one of the dedicated harnesses...everything is crystal clear and I'd recommend it as a person with no prior experience going just by the manual...it's that easy to follow.

For what it's worth, and from someone who sounds like their wiring system is a mess...it's not. It's simply a frankenstein bronco with labor intensive work needed....things I need to do, not a shop. Just one day at that one was 1250.00...not bad, but 90% was LABOR. those on the "edge" as to which harness to buy? Take my advice (for what it's worth, and regardless of how well my b is running now), for it's my inexperience, not the diagrams or text that's the problem. And, you are right...I need to change that wire. Bigger is better!

Couldn't help that rather crass pun, guess it's "back at" the guy who said, "hot"? Heck yeah, in the desert...(yours was sweet, at least!). It's always been a better cold running vehicle...it's already running better with the ten degree drop we've had.

To the other guy who asked about the shop. I won't ever mention names. They were nice...I'm difficult as hell to deal with; I just expect better work than what I can do (not a hard thing to do), and it was absolutely related to their trying to do too much, too many "favors" (I'll never agree to "extra help" for free again...it never is, anyway). I also didn't like the fact they didn't document that "free work," as it ended up causing more problems...the kickdown is not what Holley reccomends, and I spoke with their tech dept. as I described what I was looking at...they didn't understand why there was no spring to the accelerator pump/lever that's in the parts kit for a ford auto, (did I get that right? Sounds wrong.). That was two problems ago, so I've forgotten by now.

They did put on a dam*ned difficult clip to hold the rod from the tranny that I had to reluctantly take off when removing and cleaning the carb float bowls. Of course, I tossed it, thinking it was just a regular clip. Holley sells that part (if it's that part) for 39.99...it's a money maker, 'cause it looks like an oversized washer. I was reluctant to remove it, because they weren't exactly clear about putting a kickdown on it (no documentation, just me mentioning in passing how pleased I was they attached the kickdown rod, so I ASSUMED...I was in a hurry to get down the mountain before dark, as usual...no headlights, and didn't ask enough questions). It didn't look like the holley parts kit, though, once I got home...no spring, black clip, etc.... I hunted all night and half the next a.m. for that part. Pfffff. I'm still hoping it was just a clip....just a clip...just a clip.....

Overall, I'm glad I've started working on it, and just wish I'd taken shop class a few decades ago. As for installing the starter, glad I read about not letting it fall on your head, and didn't, for once, have a few beers beforehand, or I would have done it, for sure...Murphy's Law was averted for once. All's good as long as my baby is running; makes me a happy camper! (it's just not running "far" right now). Thanks for the quick replies.
D ;D

 

[dbevans2249]

Offroadchick, about where are you at? The 3G Alternator upgrade would be something to consider. It's easy, they are plentiful in the U Jerk Yards and Oct 2-3 the one here has half price days. One would be about $25.00 with core charge and guarantee then I believe. Less if you have an old alternator to turn in for a core. Just something to think about.

 

[av bronco]

Gotta agree on the 3g, raaayy(or close) is the alt wizard, I got my 3g from a junkyard for 25 bucks, puts out 140 amps and there is a zillon wiring diagrams on the web for the conversion/ upgrade( same as early mustang)

 

[DirtDonk]

We talked about the 3G and others before, but I think she sort of got "roped" into the one she now has by well-meaning guys at a normally reputable shop down south here.
I don't remember the details, but if I remember, it seems they did more work than requested, cost more than originally expected, added more than she wanted, tried to fix things that didn't need fixin', and she's been fighting gremlins ever since.
Got her back on the road alright, but it was never the same afterward.

What's it been chick? You been fighting this for like six months now?

Paul

 

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Well first to expalin some issues. If you have a 100amp'er, I suspect it is based on a 10 or 12SI Delco. Really old school, and the highest output stock was a 94amp 12si. This was used back when cars all idled over 1000rpm. Bumping them up to 100amps, made their at idle outputs even lower. By example you likely have to hit 1100 engine rpm to have it turn on, and then it will likely charge down to about 800-850 rpm. If the builder didnt use highend parts, these figures will be even worse.

by contrast a modern version will start charging around 600-700rpm. Charge back down to below 550rpm. Even bumped up we can still get 130+amps, and have it charge below 600rpm. A base 130amp new style one wire, typically has over 100amps at 1000 engine rpm. The old style 10si like you have, could be any where from 20-50amps. I havea 204amp unit that is still producing 70amps at 750rpm, and 133amps at 1000rpm.

So it is not that you have a true one wire alternator that is your problem. You just dont have a modern one. I would also like to say, that if properly built, the one wire has advantages over externally signalled units. A lot of the negativity on the internet about the one wire comes from the old school ones not charging at modern idles, and one website of a guy that is not stellar on alternator knowledge (but sounds like he is).

At this point you can address your alternator issues several ways. Cheapest is to bump your idle up a bit, and repalce the alternators pulley with a smaller diameter one. Then when it dies, fix it with another option listed below.

1.) Stay with a one wire, but get a newer style. Makes your wiring easier, and these are the least expensive "new " options.

2.) Do the 3G upgrade. New they are expensive, but offer awesome idle amperages, and large cases disapate heat well in hot enviroments. Being in the desert, a hybird between a 3 and 6G might actually be best. As the 6g is even better at reducing heat. This is your most expensive option (normal anyway, there are $1000+ alternators for Ford, so not counting them)

3.) As mentioned before, you can also get used 3G's relatively inexpensively. You have to add some wiring, but it is really easy. There are two plugs on the back. One is a little gray one that attaches to the center white wire in the other plug. There is a yellow wire in the large "D" plug that goes to the power output post on the back of the alternator. And there is the light circuit wire that is green with a red stripe.

This green with red strip wire should go to an LED pigtail, then the other wire on the LED pigtail should go to a keyed power source. i.e. something that turns on when the key is in the run position and off when the key is off. The LED will light up when the alternator is not charging, and go out when it is charging.

My thought is to either sell your current alternator "used" to a farmer, or run it into the ground. Then do the 3G swap. If funds are tight, do the used version, as you can replace the alternator later, but still use the wiring.

As mentioned your 12ga wire has to go. Easy/good/inexpensive solution is to replace the cable with a 4ga wire going directly to the battery. This way when you up grade later, you will not need a new battery cable. NAPA will have them listed as starter cables, but they are not expensive. If you are ever going to be getting MSD or large stereo, go to a welding supply shop and have them make you a cable out of welding cable. Fine wire is better.

Your fuse is way too small for the alternator you have now, and for anything you upgrade too. For the most part we never fuse the alternator. People go on about it being a safety issue, but truthfully there are millions and millions of cars with large cables going to their starters that are not fused. So leaving it and its potential problems out of the alternators output circuit, should not be an issue.

 

[Scott C.]

I thought the hole idea of the one wire or, "self exciting", regulator in the alternator was to automatically start charging. With out the "self exciting" regulator the alternator needs rpm to excite it into charging. As for wiring a "self exciting" alternator, there only needs to be the battery wire. The small two wire connector is simply for a gauge or light. I did the conversion on my Ford tractor. I hooked up the old generator light as a discharge, or "idiot" light. I ran a wire from the ignition switch to the light, then from the light to one side ( I think it was the left ) of the two wire connector. If you turn on the igition switch. The light comes on because the amature is currently grounded (I think). Then as soon as the alterntor starts turning the light goes out because now the terminal is not grounded. It does not require reving the engine above idle speed to start charging.

 

[Offroadchick]

Interesting, guys! And, right on, DD! (Paul) I took a break after that disastrous shop visit then replaced a mud rover tire, the battery, and the starter (and, as usual, lost your number and forgot my password....haha)....then went back to "finishing the electrical." Add those costs to the shop visit, and I should've scrapped the old girl....that was around 1700.00 dropped on a vehicle that gets me to RALPHS. Haha. But, she looks great . And, she will climb...as long as I don't travel too far off the beaten path.


Oh, and funny the comments about "tractors." That's all I read these alternators are good for....tractors and short course race cars. The shop guys were reluctant to go for anything more than the 100 amper, (THEY put that gauge wire on, by the way, I just re-routed it to a maxi fuse). It takes the place of the usual "fusible link" on most starter relays, so I can't understand the one comment about it not being neccessary.... Guru said I needed a bigger fuse? Or no fuse? I'm conFUSED. Sounds like he knows his stuff, 'cause he nailed what that alternator is....and everything sounds in line with my thoughts this a.m.. All very good suggestions. I do know what I need to do today...change that wire. The NAPA boys know me by name. I was very proud when they asked lil' ole me to help someone who had broken down....it fed the ego, at least. They know that I know what I'm doing at least half the time . I'd like to talk more about not fusing those wires, though.

(I'll send you a PM, Guru., if you don't mind, cause I've never seen a diagram that doesn't fuse the main system). I have fuses in place EVERYWHERE, 20 inline fuse going to the coil, etc.... If nothing else, I believe in fuses....but you're not the only one who has said that....I think Paul did? Chime in, donk?


Good morning to all...thanks for the advice.
D

 

[broncnaz]

Most charging circuits at least older ones dont have fuses in them. While fuses do add a factor of safety they are not really needed in the charging circuit since the wires are usually big enough to handle the amps and amperage doesnt tend to stay high. Yes on some of the other circuits in which your wires are very long and small a fuze will help prevent issues from arising.

While these older one wire alternators are not the best they are not that bad. Many people talk smack about them mostly because there are better options out there. But for all intesive purposes they still get the job done. One reason they are so popular on tractors and race cars is ease of hook up and normally hi amp ratings are not required.

 

[chase8266]

did all of this stem from a starting problem?and what type of starting problem do you have? i would say make sure your battery connections to the frame and motor are clean of rust and bolted tight.
and maybe after 5 miles and hard starting the coil could be getting hot and causing the problem.
The starter next intake manifold?
I just replaced the starter (another "first"), and it does get very hot next to that edelbrock manifold (which I read somewhere gets hotter than others...or, i could've dreamt it in my sleep...who knows?). I've considered getting one of those thermoshield wraps. ANYONE HAVE LUCK WITH THOSE HELPING IN THAT DEPARTMENT?

 

[Offroadchick]

Check, check, check. Even installed a grounding cable to the chassis which I sanded down for a good ground. Um, never said the starter was next to the INTAKE manifold...I said what's quoted, and asked if anyone had had any luck with thermoshields that wrap around the starter...it's a tight fit there, so I'd imagine it would help a bit for the price...around 30 bucks on Jegs, I think.

If you need to know where the intake manifold is, I'd be happy to tell you WHERE TO GO...just PM me, dude ;D

 

[chuck]

I have been selling the 3G 1 wire for a long time without problems. I also sell the fuse. This is why, I don't want to hear "your alt. burned my EB to the ground. Its a CYA thing The fuse really protects the alt. from the battery if a diode fails in the alt. This does happen but rarely. The alt I sell can charge 167 amps but never will because the battery will not take it. But if the diode set fails the battery can put several hundred amps back to the shorted diodes until something melts which can make a fire. As I said before this is rare. I run a fuse on my crawler but not on the racer. Ray knows about your alt. I don't, the 3gs will charge at idle if everything is right. One year the racer stalled while driving slow, yes slow, off-road racing is like that. Anyway they had been driving slow behind someone for a while and came across the Pike truck hanging over a cliff and stopped to help. When the truck went to idle it died and the battery was dead. A/C, a bunch of lights, radio, GPS and computer was too much draw for slow speeds and someone was not watching the gauges. Anyway I found this problem the hard way( cost us 3 hrs until they got a jump) The fix... a smaller alt pulley, that might help you?

 

[Offroadchick]

Interestiing, Chuck. If I could afford a visit to another shop, I'd do just that...go to a smaller pulley. Heck, it can't cost that much, though? Thanks for the suggestion.
I think the best fix right now is to lose that 12 gauge wire. That's why I get so angry at shops...they did it...they should know better. They even replaced the battery "ends" and put in an old tray....130.00 for something I could do, yet he put that 12 gauge wire from that new alternator to the starter relay (poorly crimped, at that).

So why did I let him put in a freakin' battery tray? He used a phrase I was unfamialir with..."dialing in." I didn't know what that meant, so he got me. %) It's not hard....I'm in that dangerous place of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, but I do know what I want....I research items to death. I just don't feel comfortable arguing with mechanics....yet that wire is a prime example. Even I knew, looking at it, it was too small. Then I got home and looked at the tray...not even new. I also should've insisted on a 50 oz harmonic balancer insteed of 28 oz, so she shakes like a polaroid picture now. She's always worse after a visit to the "shop." Someone needs to take it off my hands....not in love with her anymore.

I'm ready for a divorce. It's a good looking vehicle, dent free, but of course, is far from perfect. Anyone is welcome to ask about price. Totally serious. Never been registered in Cali, either.

Oh, and sorry to the guy before Chuck...I just get "pissy" when people quote others for a laugh. It's not cool. And, I do lose my temper quickly about this vehicle....I've put too much of my heart and soul into it. It is time for it to go, or I'll turn into some type of serial killer over it. It's that aggravating. PM me for price.....you'd be surprised what I'd take and what it's got. I just wish it reflected the over thirty grand in receipts I have.
D

 

[RRRAAAYYY2]

It has been a while since I expalined how your alternator really cant burn your vehicle up. If you fuse it properly, accounting for high in load rushes, a 3G should have a 180amp fuse, and on an EB 4ga wire. On some other vehicles the output wire is 1/0 because of the distance it has to run.

Between the alternator output post and the stator is a set of diodes. If they short to ground, it takes about 70-100amps to blow them up. As they have stems on them, almost like a fuse or fuseable link. So the main fuse would not blow if one of the positive diodes went to ground. Also if anything on the other side of them did, the diode would blow as soon as it reached much past the 70-100amps. I have seen 100's of fried stators, literally been on fire, and the diodes still be good in the rectifier.

The fuse would protect the main cable going to ground. Which might happen in a bad accident, or improper routing. But the starter cable on Fords to the main solenoid, or the starter cable on Chevy, Chrysler, foriegn cars, etc, has no fuse. And it is routed near exhaust manifolds and a lot longer.

You will not harm anything with having a fuse on the line, as long as it is larger than the alternator's output.

Hope that all makes sense.