WH TRO with standard 1977 T-setup?

[Shimmy]

1977 3.5" TBP lift
WH T conversion steering

Now that I'm at 3.5" of SL, I could use better steering angles.

Has anyone reamed or drilled and installed inserts on their 77 knuckles to swap the Wild Horses T steering to TRO? Any links or advice to what inserts to use?

EDIT: I'm thinking this is what i need? i'll drill the knuckles to 3/4" and drop these Duff tapered inserts on top.

https://dufftuff.com/product/tapered-bushing-sleeve-set-for-3-4-drilled-knuckles-dana-44/

 

[DirtDonk]

Can't see the pictures very well from my phone, or check out the Duff link. Is it their stud for Hei joint ends? Or is it a female taper for a standard tapered rod end?
I'll check it out when I get back to my computer, but for now I wanna mention something.

One general comment about TRO is that it puts the tie rod in line with the lower track bar mount. Geometrically this could be a great thing, but in reality it also puts it dangerously close to that lower bolt/stud. This can at best limit you're turning slightly, but at worst it can jam up and leave you with a heavily puckered seat.
There are workarounds though, such as cutting off any excess studs sticking out. Or even going to a thinner locknuts to give you even more room to cut the stud. The ultimate cure is a lower riser bracket, but you're not trying to change the angle on the track bar just yet.

You can at least get an idea of where you stand by turning your wheels to both limits, left and right, and eyeballing how much clearance you might or might not have between the Tyrod and the lower stud.

 

[DirtDonk]

Oh, and going tie rod over also looks from here like it will not correct your misalignment issue. Yes it will lower the overall angle, which is a good thing, but it won't make your two bars any more parallel. It will simply reverse the out of parallel relationship.

I think you're on the right track however. Changing to TRO lowers the working angle of the drag link, and a simple custom upper track bar drop bracket could bring them back into parallel.

But this all presumes that a tie rod over position will have clearance at the lower track bar mount. So check that first.

 

[SteveL]

Make sure the tie-rod set up you purchase is wide enough for the 76-77 knuckles.
The 76-77 knuckles kick out wider than pre 76 eb or full size knuckles where the tie-rods bolt up.

 

[DirtDonk]

They've already got our correct linkage for the wider knuckles. They're just talking about flipping it over to a TRO position and what would be best for drilling down from the top.

 

[Shimmy]

Oh, and going tie rod over also looks from here like it will not correct your misalignment issue. Yes it will lower the overall angle, which is a good thing, but it won't make your two bars any more parallel. It will simply reverse the out of parallel relationship.

I think you're on the right track however. Changing to TRO lowers the working angle of the drag link, and a simple custom upper track bar drop bracket could bring them back into parallel.

But this all presumes that a tie rod over position will have clearance at the lower track bar mount. So check that first.

Thanks for chiming in Paul. It looks like my tie rod will hit the track bar mount stud, so i'll need to shave or do something there. Do they make offset tie rod ends that'll fit the Wild Horse steering setup I have? Thank you for reminding me to check that!

Make sure the tie-rod set up you purchase is wide enough for the 76-77 knuckles.
The 76-77 knuckles kick out wider than pre 76 eb or full size knuckles where the tie-rods bolt up.

Yup! I'm already running the Wildhorse T conversion for the 76-77. Nice setup so i'd like to retain it and just swap over the knuckles with it.

 

[DirtDonk]

Sorry I missed something the first time Shimmy. Now that I can see the pics full size on my computer I see you still need to fine tune the adjustment of your tie-rod.

That point where the lower drag-link attaches to the tie-rod center-link should be angled upward at an approx. 60° angle. This improves steering geometery in multiple ways. One of which is to raise the lower end of the drag-link and put it in a better parallel alignment than it is now.
The typical combination for converting a '76/'77 Inverted-Y setup to this Inverted-T setup will often include our pitman arm #791275 (https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Drop_Pitman_Arm_7879yr/Suspension_Parts_78yr) and shim #2382 (https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Tapered_Sleeves_for_F150_Knuckles/Custom_tie_rods) to fine tune that last bit of angle to get them into parallel.
The pitman arm is not needed every time, but it's needed probably 80% of the time to add the final touch.

Notice it's not a standard EB pitman arm, which has too much drop and puts the bars out of parallel in the other direction. This is a modest drop for a full-size truck (hence the need for the sleeves) but is just right for some EB applications.
Rotate your tie-rod up first though, to see where that puts you.
You would still benefit from lowering the overall angles, but it will steer notably better once you change that angle on the tie-rod.

Simple as loosening the three adjusting sleeves (at least one clamp on each) and twisting it "up" by hand until the Zerk fitting on the draglink is pointing at the bottom of the radiator or thereabouts. If you have an angle finder 60 degrees is what you're shooting for.

Paul

 

[Madgyver]

Ruffstuff linkages with chevy toe-rod ends on top of 77 knuckles.
tracbar riser on axle.

 

[Shimmy]

That point where the lower drag-link attaches to the tie-rod center-link should be angled upward at an approx. 60° angle. This improves steering geometery in multiple ways. One of which is to raise the lower end of the drag-link and put it in a better parallel alignment than it is now.

Paul

Thanks Paul! the angles look a much better after i clocked the bar at 60°

Ruffstuff linkages with chevy toe-rod ends on top of 77 knuckles.
tracbar riser on axle.

Thanks for the pic! I'll look into this too.

 

[Shimmy]

Updated pic of the steering angles. It drives pretty good now but will be even better once I get the DL and TB more parallel and flat.

I'm trying to get confirmation from Duff that their tapered inserts will work with stock tie rod ends but they won't give me a straight answer%)

 

[DirtDonk]

Flatter is better, but they're about as parallel as you're ever going to get them.
If you measure from the ground to the pivot points of each bar, I think you'll find them at roughly equal heights. At least that's how it looks from here.

Paul

 

[Seventee]

Updated pic of the steering angles. It drives pretty good now but will be even better once I get the DL and TB more parallel and flat.

I'm trying to get confirmation from Duff that their tapered inserts will work with stock tie rod ends but they won't give me a straight answer%)

I used the Duff inserts to convert my narrowed HP44 with Wildhorses 3-way T system.



The inserts fit, but due to the thickness of the flange on top of the insert, there was barely enough room to install the castle nut and get a cotter pin through the hole. I also measured the thickest part of the taper on the Wildhorses TRE stud and found it was slightly thicker than my stock EB TRE's, so that also contributed to the stud not seating as far down as I would've liked. But it all worked.

I also had to trim off the excess lower track bar bolt, although keep in mind this is on a HP44 so others may differ.

 

[Seventee]

Updated pic of the steering angles. It drives pretty good now but will be even better once I get the DL and TB more parallel and flat.

I'm trying to get confirmation from Duff that their tapered inserts will work with stock tie rod ends but they won't give me a straight answer%)

After looking at this picture again, I agree with Paul that a TRO conversion would put the lower end of your drag link too high. I think you're really close as-is.

 

[Shimmy]

After looking at this picture again, I agree with Paul that a TRO conversion would put the lower end of your drag link too high. I think you're really close as-is.

Thank you so much for chiming in!! And your pics are so helpful!!! If I went TRO, I'd also install the duff TB riser bracket. Still think my DL would sit way too high?

 

[Seventee]

Thank you so much for chiming in!! And your pics are so helpful!!! If I went TRO, I'd also install the duff TB riser bracket. Still think my DL would sit way too high?

They don't specify how much the track bar riser adds to the height, but it might work out if the added height is close you what you'd gain with the TRO. It also appears it would eliminate the interference with the stock track bar mount.

 

[jamesroney]

I used the Duff inserts to convert my narrowed HP44 with Wildhorses 3-way T system.

The inserts fit, but due to the thickness of the flange on top of the insert, there was barely enough room to install the castle nut and get a cotter pin through the hole. I also measured the thickest part of the taper on the Wildhorses TRE stud and found it was slightly thicker than my stock EB TRE's, so that also contributed to the stud not seating as far down as I would've liked. But it all worked.

I also had to trim off the excess lower track bar bolt, although keep in mind this is on a HP44 so others may differ.

I had the same problem yesterday. The inserts have a 1 inch diameter shoulder that's 1/16 thick. It didn't leave enough thread to expose the cotter pin hole. I went ahead and counterbored the knuckle to bring the insert flush. That fixed it.

 

[Seventee]

I had the same problem yesterday. The inserts have a 1 inch diameter shoulder that's 1/16 thick. It didn't leave enough thread to expose the cotter pin hole. I went ahead and counterbored the knuckle to bring the insert flush. That fixed it.

What brand are your tie rod ends?

 

[jamesroney]

What brand are your tie rod ends?

Great question. I have no idea. I just use the generic part number for the Chevy 1 ton TRE. I usually save them from projects that I'm working on. I get the threaded bungs and jam nuts from the ebay source, (GreatAutoDeals) and I got the DOM from Amazon.

The whole kit is $81.00 + the cost of DOM. I run 1/4 wall on the tie rod, and 3/16 wall on the drag link.

ES2026, ES2027, ES2233, ES2234


Looking at my pics, I think one of mine might be a Tera Flex end. It has the spring retainer on the dust boot.

 

[Shimmy]

I suppose the other option instead of these inserts is to just use a tapered reamer bit and drill from the top of the knuckle

 

[jamesroney]

I suppose the other option instead of these inserts is to just use a tapered reamer bit and drill from the top of the knuckle

Maybe on a 76-77 Bronco knuckle, but definitely not on the 76-79 F100 knuckle. The 76-79 F100 knuckle has the "big" taper, and if you just run the reamer from the backside...there's no meat left to get a good fit.

The 76-77 starts with the "small" taper, so there might be enough material to just reverse it. The problem is that those stock 76-77 Bronco knuckles are so hard to find that I hate to machine them. Some original Bronco owner is sure to want them. 76-79 F100 / big bronco knuckles are more plentiful.