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Why Dana 60?

BRONCOSWILD

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Joined
Aug 16, 2023
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3
Loc.
HOCKLEY,TX
I agree that this is a problem. Did someone say Fordyce??? The other issue is that some Bronco's have been improved / modified / bulletproofed over the years to the point where they no longer self-destruct on the trail. It's a double edged sword. I think it intimidates some newbies from taking the plunge. But you also run out of things to share at the campfire. But @nvrstuk is exactly right. I know where this green Bronco still lives. It hasn't been on the trail in 10+ years. It sits in an air conditioned garage, and is "too pretty" to wheel. And that Green M38 also sits in a $3M garage-mahal.

Funny thing is, that M38 has an SEFI 5.0 / NP435 / D60 / D44. If you didn't know better, you would think it's a Bronco. In fact, after I built it, I realized that I had invented a Bronco. So I built this blue one. And since this is a D60 thread, you can see the low budget D60 sitting under the front of this one. Cheapest 60 that I could find. It's a GM King Pin 60, with tubes swapped, and re-patterned 5x5.5 hubs, and shortened / re-splined on one side. Modified 3/4 ton GM back plates and rotors. Used c-wedges and track bar bracket from a D30. All used parts. I think I spent $1K total. And about 500 hours. Rolling on 35's, that pumpkin was capable of finding every boulder on the trail. It made a lot of interesting noises scraping the tops off of just about everything. It got hit more times than Joe Louis. Highly recommend shaving, or going 37's. I don't know why the rear 60 never got hung up.
@jamesroney. I'm curious what is the total width of your front D60? Did you run into any issues with the spring perches being too close to the king pins? I'm preparing to pick up my first EB and I am planning out my build. Wanted to be happy with just the D44 and 9" upgraded but know I will regret later not just fetching for the larger axles. Contemplated having Dynatrac build a set a of ProRocks but not sure if they can get them even remotely close to the stock width. This thread has about sold me on the D60 front 14 Bolt rear setup though also.

With the 35's in that pic how much lift are you running, 5.5"? Thank you for your time
 
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jamesroney

Sr. Member
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Sep 11, 2007
Messages
1,857
Loc.
Fremont, CA
I'm curious what is the total width of your front D60? Did you run into any issues with the spring perches being too close to the king pins? I'm preparing to pick up my first EB and I am planning out my build. Wanted to be happy with just the D44 and 9" upgraded but know I will regret later not just fetching for the larger axles. Contemplated having Dynatrac build a set a of ProRocks but not sure if they can get them even remotely close to the stock width. This thread has about sold me on the D60 front 14 Bolt rear setup though also.

With the 35's in that pic how much lift are you running, 5.5"?
I think that one is 64 WMS. I know for sure that my red bronco was at 64, and definitely put the spring cup into the king pin cap. I ended up shaving the bolts on the cap so that it would steer. The King pin knuckles, spindles, and hubs take up a lot of space.

I did talk to Dynatrac when I built my Pro Rocks, and they were pretty firm at 64 as the minimum WMS on an early Bronco.

I was running 3.5 suspension, and 2 inch body lift with the 35's.
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Jan 30, 2005
Messages
3,393
Loc.
Upper SoKA
My understanding...
Gun drilling an axle just removes mass. The central core of the shaft add no strength but has weight. Too expensive for mass production, but budgets for racing are a lot different.
Old post, but I've some experience in looking at this. From running the iterative torsional strength calcs roughly the middle third of a solid shaft is just extra weight that does nothing to contribute to the torsional strength of the shaft.
With regard to gundrilling the axle shafts, pay attention to the interior surface finish. It can't be too polished, but it easily can be too rough.

I was given a bent (!!!!) 14bff axle tube. No one knew how that happened, but all who saw agreed that it couldn't have been pretty. It was the right size for the housing of bearings that I used to build a rear bumper swinger. Whatever alloy that tube was made out of was gnarly to machine! It tore up cemented carbide lathe tools at a spindle speed that gave a decent finish. Faster or slower than that ate the tool even faster and the surface finish went to heck. What was also curious is that the tube walls were tapers on the ID. The tube was thinner at the center housing end than it was at the spindles. Thinner meaning that it was only about 3/8" thick at the thin end, and well over 1/2" thick at the spindle end.

BAX & nvrstk, used to be some of the best ice cream I've ever had came from this little store: LINK Of course, it's been 30 years since I was there, but they'll still have it. Right? When do we meet there? If that's too risky then I propose that we meet here: LINK They'll have some good stuff!
 

Madgyver

Bronco Madman
Joined
Jul 30, 2001
Messages
14,765
This thread just reminded me to get off my butt and get those HP60/14bolt axles installed...
Wife's Green77 needs to be completed, then Taz gets into a small mishap with the FireBronco in heavy rain. Now fixed because fish is biting, His motivation.
I keep seeing the HP60/14bolt axles in my driveway as a motivation to finish Green77 first..
 

BRONCOSWILD

New Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
Messages
3
Loc.
HOCKLEY,TX
I think that one is 64 WMS. I know for sure that my red bronco was at 64, and definitely put the spring cup into the king pin cap. I ended up shaving the bolts on the cap so that it would steer. The King pin knuckles, spindles, and hubs take up a lot of space.

I did talk to Dynatrac when I built my Pro Rocks, and they were pretty firm at 64 as the minimum WMS on an early Bronco.

I was running 3.5 suspension, and 2 inch body lift with the 35's.
@jamesroney Thank you for the reply. Your setup in the picture I referenced looked great and is the look I'm wanting to achieve. Even with the 4" wider than factory axles it doesn't really look it in that picture.

This has about made my mind up, I hadn't talked to Dynatrac yet but if 64 is as narrow as they can take their 60's also I might as well just go for the 60 front and 14 bolt rear.

Thanks again for the knowledge.
 
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Yeller

Yeller

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I ran into the same issue of the spring and knuckle competing for the same real estate. My solution was to raise the spring cup above it. @jamesroney is completely correct, building a D60 narrower than 64” is difficult. Big parts take up big real estate. It is possible with a 64” axle to be 75-76ish inches wide outside of tire, less than 1” wider per side than a bronco 44 with a typical 10” wide wheel. That’s with an 9” wheel with 5” of back spacing, which in a 17” is fairly common. For instance a full width, pre super duty axle like a king pin is 69” wide with that same 5” back space wheel it is 80” wide outside of tire. My truck has 4.5” back spacing and is just under 81” wide.

This is lengthy to describe so I hope it’s decipherable.
 

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jamesroney

Sr. Member
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Fremont, CA
I ran into the same issue of the spring and knuckle competing for the same real estate. My solution was to raise the spring cup above it. @jamesroney is completely correct, building a D60 narrower than 64” is difficult. Big parts take up big real estate. It is possible with a 64” axle to be 75-76ish inches wide outside of tire, less than 1” wider per side than a bronco 44 with a typical 10” wide wheel. That’s with an 9” wheel with 5” of back spacing, which in a 17” is fairly common. For instance a full width, pre super duty axle like a king pin is 69” wide with that same 5” back space wheel it is 80” wide outside of tire. My truck has 4.5” back spacing and is just under 81” wide.

This is lengthy to describe so I hope it’s decipherable.
When I built the Pro-Rock 60 for the red Bronco, I ended up at 64 as well. I thought if I used the Dynatrac "JK-cut" housing, and Jim Cole's weld on brackets with Cage arms (or maybe BKG brackets with Duff arms...same thing) that I would be able to go 62. But it turns out that you really don't want a King Pin 60 at 62". Even if it could fit, the distance from the King Pin center-line to the WMS is so long, that the wheel travels in a pretty big arc. I think you would be better served by running 64 wide, and using offset wheels to bring your track back in.

I did eventually source a ball joint Pro Rock 60 at 64WMS , and rather than fight with the radius arms and coil cups, I decided to go ahead and use TJ brackets and build custom arms for it. But then I realized I was re-inventing the wheel. So I bought an Artec TJ low profile truss kit. After I put it all together, I realized that I would have to move my coil buckets or run shorter wheelbase. So I went out and bought a cheap LJ. So now the LJ is my crawler, and the Bronco got a Dana 44 and 60 at 61"WMS with 4.88's ARB's and an Atlas. It is now a POS boulevard wheeler.

If I had to do it again, (and I might...since I have all of this leftover crap...) I'd still start with a Pro-Rock 60.
 

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BRONCOSWILD

New Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
Messages
3
Loc.
HOCKLEY,TX
When I built the Pro-Rock 60 for the red Bronco, I ended up at 64 as well. I thought if I used the Dynatrac "JK-cut" housing, and Jim Cole's weld on brackets with Cage arms (or maybe BKG brackets with Duff arms...same thing) that I would be able to go 62. But it turns out that you really don't want a King Pin 60 at 62". Even if it could fit, the distance from the King Pin center-line to the WMS is so long, that the wheel travels in a pretty big arc. I think you would be better served by running 64 wide, and using offset wheels to bring your track back in.

I did eventually source a ball joint Pro Rock 60 at 64WMS , and rather than fight with the radius arms and coil cups, I decided to go ahead and use TJ brackets and build custom arms for it. But then I realized I was re-inventing the wheel. So I bought an Artec TJ low profile truss kit. After I put it all together, I realized that I would have to move my coil buckets or run shorter wheelbase. So I went out and bought a cheap LJ. So now the LJ is my crawler, and the Bronco got a Dana 44 and 60 at 61"WMS with 4.88's ARB's and an Atlas. It is now a POS boulevard wheeler.

If I had to do it again, (and I might...since I have all of this leftover crap...) I'd still start with a Pro-Rock 60.
The stance on that red bronco looks great also and not overly wide. Are you using James Duff radius arms on that one with that Dynatrac 60?
 

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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Old post, but I've some experience in looking at this. From running the iterative torsional strength calcs roughly the middle third of a solid shaft is just extra weight that does nothing to contribute to the torsional strength of the shaft.
With regard to gundrilling the axle shafts, pay attention to the interior surface finish. It can't be too polished, but it easily can be too rough.

I was given a bent (!!!!) 14bff axle tube. No one knew how that happened, but all who saw agreed that it couldn't have been pretty. It was the right size for the housing of bearings that I used to build a rear bumper swinger. Whatever alloy that tube was made out of was gnarly to machine! It tore up cemented carbide lathe tools at a spindle speed that gave a decent finish. Faster or slower than that ate the tool even faster and the surface finish went to heck. What was also curious is that the tube walls were tapers on the ID. The tube was thinner at the center housing end than it was at the spindles. Thinner meaning that it was only about 3/8" thick at the thin end, and well over 1/2" thick at the spindle end.

BAX & nvrstk, used to be some of the best ice cream I've ever had came from this little store: LINK Of course, it's been 30 years since I was there, but they'll still have it. Right? When do we meet there? If that's too risky then I propose that we meet here: LINK They'll have some good stuff!
EITHER ONE of those two!! Both sound good! lol

Gotta give me a few days notice unless that guy we know up north of you can fly in with one foot and pic me up and bring me down! :)

(is this thread about front WMS or about good places to get GOOD ice cream? I'm easily distracted) lol BTW, I believe my front D60 is at 62 1/2"? Correct Tim?
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Messages
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If he could fly with one foot he'd be doing that now, I'm very sure!

This a bit divergent, but let's say, hypothetically of course, that you wanted a full float D44 rear axle. Use, weight, tire size, etc. really don't need a D60 or heavier and keeping the unsprung weight down is a priority. Where would you buy a tubed bare D44 housing? Can that even be done? If not, known full width donors?

The FF parts would either be 14bff spindles/hubs/etc., possibly D44 front parts using Brennan's housing ends, or might be a Unit Bearing system. 5X5.5 BC. Brakes will be an Explorer kit, which might bias the FF decision in the 14bff parts direction.
 
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Yeller

Yeller

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If he could fly with one foot he'd be doing that now, I'm very sure!

This a bit divergent, but let's say, hypothetically of course, that you wanted a full float D44 rear axle. Use, weight, tire size, etc. really don't need a D60 or heavier and keeping the unsprung weight down is a priority. Where would you buy a tubed bare D44 housing? Can that even be done? If not, known full width donors?

The FF parts would either be 14bff spindles/hubs/etc., possibly D44 front parts using Brennan's housing ends, or might be a Unit Bearing system. 5X5.5 BC. Brakes will be an Explorer kit, which might bias the FF decision in the 14bff parts direction.
Solid Axle or Currie could be a source for a new D44. Early J trucks are the only source I know of for full width used doners, I tossed one recently..... I'd be more interested in using a front axle for a FF unless your are planning on using diff fluid to oil bearings. I would seriously consider unit bearings.

However as of 2024 you can get a great piece from the factory and they are available on Ebay, complete. Jeep now is using a full float Spicer/Dana M220 (modern and hugely upgraded D44) on their Rubicon models that is exactly what your proposing, and they are wide, l've not seen what the actual width is but I know it is in what we consider full width territory. with the advertised track width and knowing the back spacing it is 66ish inches wide. This was originally designed for the 392 Wrangler but is now in every Rubicon. Had this axle been out in 2021 I would have one under the rear of my J truck.

Here's a short video that shows how it is assembled. I've been using unit bearings for a couple of decades building axles, they work well and when properly designed quite robust, especially in a light vehicle. This particular axle has 32 spline shafts too so there is a significant strength gain just in the axle size, even the semi float version is 32 spline.
 
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nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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That is beefy! Great looking design. Beats the ol' 1960's 9" design all to heck-as it should!
 

jamesroney

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If he could fly with one foot he'd be doing that now, I'm very sure!

This a bit divergent, but let's say, hypothetically of course, that you wanted a full float D44 rear axle. Use, weight, tire size, etc. really don't need a D60 or heavier and keeping the unsprung weight down is a priority. Where would you buy a tubed bare D44 housing? Can that even be done? If not, known full width donors?

The FF parts would either be 14bff spindles/hubs/etc., possibly D44 front parts using Brennan's housing ends, or might be a Unit Bearing system. 5X5.5 BC. Brakes will be an Explorer kit, which might bias the FF decision in the 14bff parts direction.
Oops, @Yeller posted while I was typing...

Interesting question. But your assumptions pre-determine your outcome. So I will challenge the assumption.

Why in the world would anyone want a full float 44? First, you have to define what YOU mean by a Dana 44. And you need to explain exactly what it is you intend to do with it. The figure of merit for an axle is tire diameter. It's actually that simple. How big of a tire do you intend to spin, and will you have a locker?

If the answer is 33 inch, and a locker...then the axle shaft diameter requirement is MINIMUM of 1-3/8 diameter. Without a locker, the answer is 1-5/16 diameter. Even the Jeep Wrangler evolved to a 1-3/8, 32 spline axle shaft, and every JT Gladiator comes with 32 spline shafts...even though the front Dana 44 has a smaller ring gear than the rear Dana 44. The garbage 31 spline 9 inch shaft is 1-11/32. So just barely adequate for 35's and a locker.

But as you well know, there are several ways to design and engineer components. The traditional engineering methodology is to determine the requirements, and design a solution based on the requirements. The alternative methodology is to determine the weakest component, and ensure that adjacent components are superior. Electrical Engineers do this all the time, by calculating the minimum required current, and installing a fuse that will fail before the components fail. On the farm, we call this "barely engineering" short for: "I don't need to out-run a bear...I just need to out-run YOU."

With that in mind, you need to establish the failure mode of your Full Float Axle system. Given all of the input parameters, and torque multiplication, and coefficients of friction, and brake torque, and impact, and what do you expect to fail? Guys like @nvrstuk expect traction to be the limiting factor in all cases. He expects the tires to slip before the differential grenades. Or the axle shaft twists, or the driveshaft wrings off, or the transfer case blows up, or the transmission slips, or the engine stalls. But that type of QFD is not realistic if you don't know the traction, load, and terrain parameters. This is why the Dana 60 (and the Corporate 14 bolt) became legendary in the first place. At the end of the day, it's the 1.5 inch, 35 spline axle shaft in the 1969 Mopar that set the standard. Then later, the 1-9/16 inch, 30 spline Corporate 14 bolt. And that's the answer.

Superior axle invented the Super44 way back in the 1990's as an upgrade to get 1.5 inch shafts into a Dana 44, so that they would hold up to 35 inch tires on the rocks. Similar to your use case, they wanted light weight, low carrying capacity, but high torque capacity. Even today, 30 years later, ARB is selling a 35 spline upgrade for the Dana M220 (you call it a Dana 44) Back to the point of Bearly Engineering...once the axle shafts are upgraded, then next failure point is the carrier, which is upgraded, then the ring gear explodes. Nobody wants their ring gear crunching on the trail.

So why all this talk about the axle shaft when you mentioned floater? Because in order to get the power to the wheel, you have to have a shaft that will carry the torque. And then you have to figure out a way to couple the shaft to the wheel hub. And here is the problem. How exactly are you going to couple your axle shaft to the wheel? And what was the original point again? Did you want floating axles because you wanted to be able to unlock them? Or are you OK with a bolted, flanged, or fixed connection? And if you are OK with a fixed connection, why do you want floating? The ONLY advantage to floating axles is the ability to carry a load. If you aren't carrying anything, then what's the point? Jeep figured this out back in 1944, when they abandoned the Full Float Dana 25 rear axle in the MB. It got replaced by the short-lived Dana 41 with tapered hubs.

But back to the hub and drive flange problem. I admit that I havent tried The Corporate 14 bolt with the double splined shafts, and the drive slug and the little metal plate from the Kodiak but no way to fit that on 5x5.5, So there are exactly ZERO disconnecting hubs that can withstand the cyclical loading of a rear axle application. I bought the Warn small hub floater kit, The Dana 25 external hub kit, and the 9 inch full float big hub kit. I've put Dana 50 front hubs on Dana 61 rear spindles. I've tried internal, and external hubs. 30 and 35 spline. I have bought the Warn big hub lockouts with the set screw. And replaced the inner spring wavy washer with a billet spacer. NONE of that crap would hold up to a single full throttle launch on the street running BFG 33's. I have literally had locking hubs shoot off the side of the car, hit the curb and fly 20-30 feet in the air. The ONLY good thing about an exploding hub is that it coincides with a total loss of movement. So you don't have to walk very far to find your broken parts.

You don't want a full float 44. I have owned every kind of full float 44 that I could find. But if you need a donor housing, the JK / JL /JT Dana Advantek 44 is a good choice. Lop off the ends, and weld on some outers.

I would not intentionally install a unit bearing on any vehicle that I own, or have to ride in. I have deleted the unit bearings in my Cummins. Worst idea anyone ever put on an axle. Please, please, go 8 lug with a 6.5 bolt circle.
 

nvrstuk

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James- I am still laughing when you mentioned the benefit of not having to walk far to pick up the exploding parts that flew into the air! lol
 

rocknhorse76

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EITHER ONE of those two!! Both sound good! lol

Gotta give me a few days notice unless that guy we know up north of you can fly in with one foot and pic me up and bring me down! :)

(is this thread about front WMS or about good places to get GOOD ice cream? I'm easily distracted) lol BTW, I believe my front D60 is at 62 1/2"? Correct Tim?
Nope, you’re at 65 1/2”!
 

nvrstuk

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Just a Bronco driver for over 50 yrs!
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9,057
Thx! :)

Tim's my data bank for all things I forget! lol. Much quicker than looking it up or measuring (when I mount new tires this week I hope).
 

ntsqd

heratic car camper
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Upper SoKA
Some know this already, I put a D60 FF under the rear of "Snowball", my '96 FSB. I specifically chose the D60 because it was 8 lug to match the 3/4t GM front big brake conversion and with the massive drum brakes removed it didn't weigh much more than the 8.8 that it replaced. I looked at going FF in a 9" and the economics just aren't there. The additional strength & weight of a 14bff just wasn't justified by the use or the vehicle.

8x6.5 is not going to happen on this vehicle. It's not open for discussion, see "Wagon" in sig file. It is not a rock crawler like Patch sort of was; it is not used to chase desert racers like Snowball is. It will carry an RTT into semi-remote areas so that we can go car camping in areas rougher than where it would be wise to take the CTD/pop-top camper, and it may occasionally tow a tiny off-road tent trailer or tear-drop. It's a 4WD Family Truckster.

James, you've overlooked the critical reason why I detest semi-floating axle shafts. Stress in the shaft where it undergoes a massive section change, which also happens to be where there is a bearing to probably introduce fretting damage and require a sharp shoulder to correctly locate the bearing. Just seems like a spectacularly bad design to me, its a credit to their metallurgy that they don't fail much more often. SF axles seem to always break in one of two ways; twisted in the splines, or the flange breaks off the shaft. I've seen enough of the latter than I don't want to be another one. Those events tear up the equipment pretty badly.

With a 33x10.5" tire, mild engine, auto trans, no doubler, and a pair of TruTracs (no Detroits or spools or ARBs) I don't think twisting the splines of any reasonably sized shaft will be a problem for this vehicle. D44 30's are likely large enough. IF (big word) I end up with D44 front spindles/wheel hubs/ etc. then I *might* use the Yukon locking hubs with them, but free-wheeling for flat towing isn't a design goal.
In this use a unit bearing may be perfectly fine. They sure stand up to more abuse in racing than this vehicle will throw at them. Is Spidertrax the only company making those?
If not a unit bearing system, then the diff oil will lubricate the wheel bearings.

Can buy Solid Axle 14bff hubs in 5x5.5. Those use a flanged drive axle. Going with Brennan's housing ends most likely means drive slugs and double splined drive axles. Solid offers those too, no idea if they seal well or not. That is important to me.

I looked at Solid's D44 center casting and it's sold out. I've no idea how long it has been or will continue to be. I'd need to come up with tubes for it, but that's not too difficult. It does have a bunch of metal that would need to be cut off. I've spent a fair amount of time on Currie's page and I've not found much re: D44's.
 
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Yeller

Yeller

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Here’s a unit bearing source Currie and Spidertrax produce them and in the right models will interchange. There is also the circle track option but the bolt pattern is an issue in my research, typically stops at 5x5. In my experience the drive flange caps and lockout caps are bad about leaking gear oil. That’s why I brought up using a front axle and just adding tube to the short side and grease the bearings.
 
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