Front suspension/Caster Process

[WPS 73 Bronco]

So I want to get advise on my Bronco. Here are some detail on my 73:

stock steering components, prior owner replaced steering box but don't know what it is (see Pic), 315/70/17 tires (28 #), 2 1/2" lift with and additional 1" body lift.

Recent alignment resulted in:
Camber 0.3 & 0.1
Caster 2.8 & 3.4
Toe 0.06 on both sides

I don't have issues with Death Wobble. My ride seems to want to wander and is twitchy at the touch. After reading Torkman66's original post, I said to myself it sounds like mine.

In the pics following it's hard to see my track bar, but it is in parallel.

I'm ready to spend Xmas money to get the ride right so let me know what I should go buy and install.

 

[jamesroney]

So I want to get advise on my Bronco. Here are some detail on my 73:

stock steering components, prior owner replaced steering box but don't know what it is (see Pic), 315/70/17 tires (28 #), 2 1/2" lift with and additional 1" body lift.

Recent alignment resulted in:
Camber 0.3 & 0.1
Caster 2.8 & 3.4
Toe 0.06 on both sides

I don't have issues with Death Wobble. My ride seems to want to wander and is twitchy at the touch. After reading Torkman66's original post, I said to myself it sounds like mine.

In the pics following it's hard to see my track bar, but it is in parallel.

I'm ready to spend Xmas money to get the ride right so let me know what I should go buy and install.

It will never go down the road straight running Toyo Open Country's. Even with the right caster, (which you don't have...) those tires have "wander-itis"

Borrow a set of BFG KO's and it will become drive-able. But nothing will actually help until your caster number starts with a 7.

 

[toddz69]

It will never go down the road straight running Toyo Open Country's. Even with the right caster, (which you don't have...) those tires have "wander-itis"

Interesting that you say that - I've had Open Country ATs (285/75/17) on two separate occasions, including running them now on my rig and have never noticed them to have more tendency to wander than the KOs (which the second set replaced some time ago). And yes, I'm pretty sensitive to such things.

Todd Z.

 

[jamesroney]

Interesting that you say that - I've had Open Country ATs (285/75/17) on two separate occasions, including running them now on my rig and have never noticed them to have more tendency to wander than the KOs (which the second set replaced some time ago). And yes, I'm pretty sensitive to such things.

Todd Z

I put a brand new set of AT2's in 285/70/17 on my Dodge 2500 4x4 when my KO2 developed an aneurism. Les Schwab in Grants Pass, OR charged me almost $700 for a pair on a Sunday.

I had been driving that Dodge to Seattle and back, towing a Bronco on my trailer. The trip home from Grants Pass was really uncomfortable. The truck just wouldn't hold the road. It wanted to dart, and wallow around, and it felt awful. I rotated the AT2's to the rear, and the truck drove back to normal. That lasted for about 3 years, and I do admit that the AT2 tread wears like iron. I think I had 40,000 miles on them when one cut loose, and the belt shifted, and it got a basketball shaped lump in the tread. All of that happened on that super hot day in Lodi after the Wild H. Round up. Les Schwab was very generous with their warranty, and gave me $150 cash based on treadwear. I took the money and bought a Goodyear. After those wore out, I went with Kuhmo AT51's. Similar tread design to the Toyo. They suck. Almost un-steerable. So I got a single Kuhmo Highway Tread under warranty, and ran the AT on the left, and the HT on the right. Actually drove really well. I think that HT biased it in one direction, and that takes all of the slop out of my steering. (keep in mind that my steering is 250,000 miles old...and everything is sloppy.

So if you have looseness, the AT2 will amplify it. If you don't have looseness, then all the better for you. My stuff is old and tired. So I need tires that want to go straight with confidence.

 

[Torkman66]

@WPS 73 Bronco your caster is the problem. Do you know what degree wedges you installed? I’ll bet you already have 7°. Although you will be told the only “right” answer is to cut and turn the Cs on the axle, like most folks that may not be doable. So the next best thing is Duffs adjustable control arms. At the minimum setting they took my caster from 4.3 to 7.8. Day and night difference in driving. Now cruises straight with easy turns. In your case you would have to adjust them a bit more but they will definitely get you 7 or 8. It’s worth it to finally have a nice driving ride. Install was not too bad. Depends on your skill set and tools I guess

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

@WPS 73 Bronco your caster is the problem. Do you know what degree wedges you installed? I’ll bet you already have 7°. Although you will be told the only “right” answer is to cut and turn the Cs on the axle, like most folks that may not be doable. So the next best thing is Duffs adjustable control arms. At the minimum setting they took my caster from 4.3 to 7.8. Day and night difference in driving. Now cruises straight with easy turns. In your case you would have to adjust them a bit more but they will definitely get you 7 or 8. It’s worth it to finally have a nice driving ride. Install was not too bad. Depends on your skill set and tools I guess

I’m assuming I have stock wedges as I told the alignment guy to get as much caster as possible.

 

[Torkman66]

Just to be clear, caster is fixed. The alignment guy cannot change it. All you can do besides cutting and welding the axle is to change the C-bushing, or modify arms (or add eccentric). Based on the pics you posted, someone did a nice job on the Bronco. I doubt they put a 2.5” suspension lift on and kept 0 degree C bushings. That would not likely not be done. Given the caster you have, I’ll bet you have at least 4° and likely 7° installed. We might be able to tell a bit by taking some close up photos of the C-bushings from the sides. You can search this forums as well. There are some posts about the ID of the CBushing. @DirtDonk can roll in here.

 

[jamesroney]

Just to be clear, caster is fixed. The alignment guy cannot change it. All you can do besides cutting and welding the axle is to change the C-bushing, or modify arms (or add eccentric). Based on the pics you posted, someone did a nice job on the Bronco. I doubt they put a 2.5” suspension lift on and kept 0 degree C bushings. That would not likely not be done. Given the caster you have, I’ll bet you have at least 4° and likely 7° installed. We might be able to tell a bit by taking some close up photos of the C-bushings from the sides. You can search this forums as well. There are some posts about the ID of the CBushing. @DirtDonk can roll in here.

You are correct. You can see that it has urethane c-bushings, which do not come in a 0 degree configuration.

His caster measures at 3. He says he's at 2.5 lift (which I don't trust without verification) But let's pretend that he has 2.5 nominal lift front and rear. If so, his 32 inch long radius arm is sitting 4.5 degrees down from stock.

His factory caster WAS 4. He reduced caster with his lift by 4.5 degrees to get to -0.5. He rolled it back by some amount to get to 3.

He has 4 degree bushings.

 

[jamesroney]

@WPS 73 Bronco your caster is the problem. Do you know what degree wedges you installed? I’ll bet you already have 7°. Although you will be told the only “right” answer is to cut and turn the Cs on the axle, like most folks that may not be doable. So the next best thing is Duffs adjustable control arms. At the minimum setting they took my caster from 4.3 to 7.8. Day and night difference in driving. Now cruises straight with easy turns. In your case you would have to adjust them a bit more but they will definitely get you 7 or 8. It’s worth it to finally have a nice driving ride. Install was not too bad. Depends on your skill set and tools I guess

Well now...Let's just look at this from a slightly different angle. (see what I did there?)

Let's say that there were two Bronco owners...with remarkably similar good taste in Boxwood Green Broncos. Let's say that one guy was told to "cut and turn" his housing, but he chose to postpone that amazing, wise, and sound advice...and chose to have his housing powder coated way too soon instead.

Bronco Owner #1 says that the only "right" answer is to cut and turn. He determines the correct adjustment, rebuilds and restores his front Dana 44, adds a 3.5 inch lift kit. He is a shade tree mechanic, and performs all the work himself. His parts list for performing the caster correction is 20 feet of welding wire. When he is done, His original front driveshaft is the perfect length, he can drive 70 MPH in 4WD, his Bronco steers perfectly, and he does his wheel alignment with a tape measure. His total cost = <$1.00

Bronco Owner #2 wants to find a better way. He assembles his axle per factory specs. He buys new c-bushings. He buys a new adjustable trac bar. He buys a trac bar bracket. He buys new steering linkage, and has his steering box rebuilt. His c-bushings are not enough. He buys another set of bushings. He buys a set of caster corrected T-rex arms. His driveshaft is too short. He buys a new driveshaft. His front u-joint vibrates, and his front CV is binding. He pays for at least 2x wheel alignments. total cost = (hint...It's more than $1.00)

So yeah, I'll say it one more time. "Cut and Turn." Every Bronco, every time. (this is hyperbole...)

 

[ntsqd]

^^^^ is what I was referring to in an earlier post on this topic. Doing a C-n-T looks scary up front and is a real commitment, but even farmed out I will estimate that it is the lower cost option.

Assuming that the work is beyond a person, I know of two people, one in the Bay Area and another in SoCA who can do the job. Whether either will take it on I don't know, but there are bound to be others scattered around the country who can do it. 20-odd years ago I came up with a Special Tool that allows an easy Caster (and relative Camber) angle measurement from a housing that has had the knuckles removed.

 

[lars]

Well, my Bronco isn't Boxwood Green, but I could be #1. Or at least I was, 22 years ago. You don't know what you don't know. So, not knowing that I couldn't do a cut n' turn, I did. Worked (still does) pretty well. The Answer Is 7 (apologies to Douglas Adams).

As @jamesroney has had the patience to point out repeatedly, everything else can be messed up and it still kinda goes straight and doesn't act weird. Gotta experience it to believe it.

Kudos once again to @ntsqd for the utterly simple yet extremely effective alignment fixture seen in photos below (which I still have, somewhere). Worth noting is that other than the Cheshire Cat smile on my face, the rest of me doesn't look like that anymore. Though I realize I still have those damn coveralls too.

Also, ignore pretty much everything about the steering, suspension etc visible in the photo of the front end, since other than the bumper and the paint color, everything else has changed, in some cases several times.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

I’m clearly Owner #2. Which points me towards T-Rex install. What are the opinions on front sway bar for my street rod-Bronco?

 

[jamesroney]

I’m clearly Owner #2. Which points me towards T-Rex install. What are the opinions on front sway bar for my street rod-Bronco?

Front sway bar is mandatory on soft sprung Broncos on the street. I run a Hellwig. It bolts on, and it's mostly out of the way. Not cheap though.

Some people say that they are "too big" meaning too stiff, but the 97-06 Wrangler runs the same diameter bar.

If you are poor, and like to fabricate, the 97-06 TJ sway bar can be made to fit. They are practically free. End links will still require fabrication, but the old James Duff 3rd shock mount "tab on the c-cap" can be welded on, and then attached.

 

[Torkman66]

@jamesroney LMAO. My heart was #1 but my path was #2. Pretty sure at this point I’m gonna find me another 44 just so I can cut and turn it and join the #1 club. I’m really feeling like an outcast. Nice boxwood bronco btw!

 

[steelworker77]

Front sway bar is mandatory on soft sprung Broncos on the street. I run a Hellwig. It bolts on, and it's mostly out of the way. Not cheap though.

Some people say that they are "too big" meaning too stiff, but the 97-06 Wrangler runs the same diameter bar.

If you are poor, and like to fabricate, the 97-06 TJ sway bar can be made to fit. They are practically free. End links will still require fabrication, but the old James Duff 3rd shock mount "tab on the c-cap" can be welded on, and then attached.

I second the Hellwig. I am running the Bilsteins which are valved way to soft in my opinion and add to the issue. I unhooked mine the other day for the first time in a year and forgot just how much of a difference it makes.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

I'm building my purchase list for Duffs. So Trex, Hellwig sway bar, and I'm considering while I'm at it to replace the front steering to their Heim Steering linkage.

 

[jamesroney]

I'm building my purchase list for Duffs. So Trex, Hellwig sway bar, and I'm considering while I'm at it to replace the front steering to their Heim Steering linkage.

No, yes, and please no.

You have 4 degree bushings in your Bronco now. A set of properly installed 7 degree bushings will get you right where you want to be. There is no reason for a 2.5 lifted Bronco to need caster corrected arms.

Heim steering joints are the dumbest thing to ever be installed on a car. I spend most of my life removing and throwing them away. They are junk, and absurd. They also require drilling out perfectly good tapered joints to replace them with something worse.

The tie rod end has successfully controlled front end movement for almost 100 years. What EXACTLY do you think a spherical rod end will do for you? Wear out? yes. Rust? yes. Fail catastrophically? Sure. Do not put that junk on your Bronco.

Go look at the choices from Wild Horses. (consult with @DirtDonk ) They have three different styles of steering. (Excellent, Better than Excellent, and OMG)

Find the one that can be lubricated, has a hundred years of proven reliability, can never fall off, and is big enough to handle your Bronco on 42's. Oh, and if there is a failure, you have a multi billion dollar company (Moog) to sue.

I run standard GM crossover with TRO. It's cheap. It's easy. It's strong. I can get replacement parts from Walmart or Target. Any idiot at any alignment shop can recognize it. Your mileage may vary...

edit. Oh, your steering box looks like it might be the one from Tom's. If so, those are pretty good. 4.25 turns, or so. Looks like a Saginaw, but has metric bolts in the cap. I don't know if PSC is making those, or only doing the ported boxes. Sorry I can't help on that.

 

[ntsqd]

Are you planning on maintaining it like a race car? Or are you planning on driving it a lot?

Spherical Rod Ends (SRE), "Heims", are sexy race car parts, but the standard Tie-Rod End (TRE) is actually better suited to just driving it by orders of magnitude. The ONLY reason to go with a spherical rod end is if your use will routinely exceed the angularity limits of a TRE. TRE's will last longer than an SRE, and that tapered stud makes them very resistant to play or slop in the mounting. An SRE has to rely on the bolt's install torque to not have a tiny bit of slop or worse. Additionally some States very specifically outlaw the use of SREs in steering. I *think* KA is one of them, not sure about who the others might be.

ETA: James beat me to it.

 

[Slowleak]

I don’t believe that is a Tom’s steering box unless they changed them. This is one I got from them a couple of months ago. It has a ridge all the way down the top. I think it is a Lares box. I see the 108 stamped on top.

 

[WPS 73 Bronco]

My ride is a street cruiser and I will put 3k on it a year. Mostly local driving. Not sure if I’ll ever do any serious off roading. Due to past problems, I swore I’d never give my business to Duffs again. I’ve been pretty much 99% to WH, with Toms getting the rest.

If the WH solution gives me what I need, then I’m thrilled to go down that path. Is the Clydesdale overkill, which is fine with me. That’s part of my DNA. Buy the best. It’s also significantly cheaper than the Duff setup.