393W Transformation Thread

[EricLar80]

Regardless of how mild or wild your cam will be , I'm still betting the roller cams will require stiffer springs than an equivalent flat tappet cam.
Either way , I would use the springs rates the cam company suggests.

Camquest suggests for a hi-torque application in a 4500 lb vehicle:
35-308-8

35-349-8

35-320-8 (1.7 rockers)
among others ....

Interesting - looks like the Crane 444211 is right between the ones you listed... %) Funny how that works.

Maybe I need to put the same one back in, based on that info.

Thanks again!

Eric

 

[HoosierDaddy]

The Crane you linked to is REALLLY close to the XE258 I've been eyeballing , which is suppossed to be a bitchin' low end cam for a 5.0 or 5.8 , any bigger than that and Camquest starts suggesting the XE264 and others just a smidge hotter , which stands to reason with the bigger displacement calming them down.

 

[mattt]

My 351w is not stroked, but I went with a Trick Flow #1 cam. http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS-51402000&autoview=sku

I haven't driven it yet, but I'm hoping it's all low and mid range. It's just a tad bigger than a stock 5.0HO cam and like someone else mentioned....hopefully the increased cubes of the 351 will pipe it down. I talked to Crane tech line and they suggested a very similar cam....I think the # was 35-351-8?

 

[EricLar80]

The Crane you linked to is REALLLY close to the XE258 I've been eyeballing , which is suppossed to be a bitchin' low end cam for a 5.0 or 5.8 , any bigger than that and Camquest starts suggesting the XE264 and others just a smidge hotter , which stands to reason with the bigger displacement calming them down.

I can tell you that a lot of people have issues using the overdrive on the 4r70w or AOD with the 5.0 and 33's/4.11's until the rpms are up pretty high - but I haven't. I have it set to shift into OD at like 55mph under normal throttle and I don't have any torque issues even going up normal freeway terrain. Of course, when it gets fairly steep, it needs to downshift, but I have been pretty impressed with the torqiness of the 444211 cam overall.

It does, however, lose gusto at about 4500 rpm when under heavy throttle.

Oh, and with EFI, it idles smoother than my 2009 G8 GT...

Eric

 

[broncnaz]

My 351w is not stroked, but I went with a Trick Flow #1 cam. http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS-51402000&autoview=sku

I haven't driven it yet, but I'm hoping it's all low and mid range. It's just a tad bigger than a stock 5.0HO cam and like someone else mentioned....hopefully the increased cubes of the 351 will pipe it down. I talked to Crane tech line and they suggested a very similar cam....I think the # was 35-351-8?

I'd say that trick flow cam is a lot bigger than a stock HO cam. You might be ok hope your gearing is low as that cam really doesnt start making power until after 2000 RPM. Also depends on how you intend to drive the thing. It has a good lope to it but I dont see it being all that good for a 4wd even if you had a stroker those 290 duration numbers are not good you'll probably only see about 12in of vacuum at idle.
I wouldnt want that cam in a 4wd that see's mostly low RPM use even with a stroker. You have to consider that TFS made that cam to match its heads and for lightweight cars.

 

[mattt]

I'd say that trick flow cam is a lot bigger than a stock HO cam. You might be ok hope your gearing is low as that cam really doesnt start making power until after 2000 RPM. Also depends on how you intend to drive the thing. It has a good lope to it but I dont see it being all that good for a 4wd even if you had a stroker those 290 duration numbers are not good you'll probably only see about 12in of vacuum at idle.
I wouldnt want that cam in a 4wd that see's mostly low RPM use even with a stroker. You have to consider that TFS made that cam to match its heads and for lightweight cars.

Interesting...I just looked at the link I posted, and Trick Flow must have changed this cam from what it was in the past. I just pulled the cam card out that came with the cam I have, and it shows advertised duration of 275/279, not the 283/291 shown on the link. According to the card, actual is 221/225 @ .050"

I looked up 5.0HO cam specs before purchasing this cam and I have two different sets of numbers for the 5.0HO cam. One set of #'s is from the Ford Performance Parts website....266/266 advertised, .444 lift both sides. The other set of #'s is from the Lightning board and those show as 211/212.7 with .44378" lift.

At this point for how buried it is, I'm going to try it and see how it is. I have a few other things going for it GT40X heads, GT40 intake, and BC 1 5/8" headers. I really hope it's not too big of a cam....BTDT on another vehicle. If it is, it's coming out!!

I gave the incorrect Crane part # that their tech guy recommended. We discussed what it was going in, gear ratios, tire size....basically covered the whole enchilada. Crane recommended a 35-310-8 to me. The specs on that cam are very close to the Trick Flow I have.....but not the Trick Flow shown on the link.

 

[broncnaz]

Hard to say but they still list the .050 duration the same so overall its probably the same cam.
As for your different ford cam specs they are basically the same the differance is ford doesnt rate there cams like the aftermarket does they give total durations and durations at .004 lift basically I think thats why you see a differance in specs one is for total the other is at .004
While you may think that camshaft specs seem close there are a lot of varibles that are different and just small changes make big differances. I hope it does work out for you. I just dont think its going to be the cam you think it is.
Also your other cam part number is for a comp cam. Which does have a better .050 duration numbers. ie 215/220 and starts making power at 1500 rpm. If you think the specs are close to your trick flow just consider that even that small changed move the powerband down 500 RPM.

 

[mattt]

Sorry this kinda hi-jacked into Eric's thread. Thanks for the info and insight broncnaz...hope for the best and pray for the rest.

 

[EricLar80]

Sorry this kinda hi-jacked into Eric's thread. Thanks for the info and insight broncnaz...hope for the best and pray for the rest.

I'll let it slide this time, mattt. No, it's all good info that people can reference.

It's been a Merry Christmas so far - I got a new MSD EFI dizzy under the tree :
MSD-8452

Eric

 

[EricLar80]

I plan on taking the block into the block reworked. I was going to get the following done: Clean; mag; bore/hone; uninstall old and reinstall new cam bearings; mill deck & notch for stoke clearance. Is there anything else I should ask them to do? Any idea what is a reasonable cost for the work? They are quoting $425 for the above.

On another note, I picked up some Eagle H-beam connecting rods that seemed to be a good deal on craigslist ($300).

I was originally planning on reworking the stock rods and removing the flash to reduce the stress concentrations, but the machine shop pretty much said to not waste time with that. For them to magnaflux and bush the rods, it was going to be almost as much as a new set of rods. So, I had picked up these H-beams. ;D

It will be interesting to see how they clear the cam and block since summit shows them as not being clearanced for strokers.

Pics:


The place I bought it from also had both a cast and forged scat crank to build a 408W for a pretty good deal. Here are the links, if anyone is interested:
Cast Crank
Forged Crank

Eric

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I can tell you that a lot of people have issues using the overdrive on the 4r70w or AOD with the 5.0 and 33's/4.11's until the rpms are up pretty high - but I haven't. I have it set to shift into OD at like 55mph under normal throttle and I don't have any torque issues even going up normal freeway terrain. Of course, when it gets fairly steep, it needs to downshift, but I have been pretty impressed with the torqiness of the 444211 cam overall.

It does, however, lose gusto at about 4500 rpm when under heavy throttle.

Oh, and with EFI, it idles smoother than my 2009 G8 GT...

Eric

Hey , thanks for that info ! I could have sworn I asked how it worked for you , you must have read my mind.

I'll be following this thread , I've been kicking the same idea around for awhile ..... mild mannered stroker torque monster.

 

[Nightstick]

Might as well have the assembly balanced and ARP bolts put on the rods... my $.02

 

[EricLar80]

Might as well have the assembly balanced and ARP bolts put on the rods... my $.02

Thanks, Nightstick. The rods came with ARP bolts, which is nice. I'll get the assembly balanced when I get the rest of the parts in and test fit everything together.

I was quoted $175 to get the balance - is that about what you were seeing?

Eric

 

[Nightstick]

That's exactly what I paid for it

 

[EricLar80]

Ok, so I am double checking all my numbers for the build and re-thinking the use of hypereutectic pistons due to the horror stories out there of the ring lands breaking. Anyway, I have put this spreadsheet together to lay out the compression ratio, quench distance and piston/pin weight. Since I am using a cast crank, I think the piston/pin weight will be important for a long life and it is pretty amazing to see what the forces are on a crank at a given rpm.

I am assuming the shop will clean up the deck about .010"; and that the overbore will be .040" now instead of .030" b/c of a previous build to .020" over on the block. That makes it a 395w now, I guess...

Take a look at the options I have put together and tell me what you think; remember, I want to run 87 octane and have cast heads:


Thanks,

Eric

 

[EricLar80]

Finally got my engine back from the builder! ( Eddings Engine in the San Fernando Valley) I had to order the pistons I wanted to use, so that took a little time. The machinist was able to go .030" over on the bore/hone (long story short, different F4TE block), so that is good too!

I ordered up some Mahle forged pistons for a smoking deal that was over $200 less than Summit was selling them for. I was going to go with the KB364's, but the cost of going forged was only about $100 more once you added in the cost of rings, and now I have little to worry about on the bottom end.

So, it looks like I have pretty much all the parts in I need to move forward with assembly - hopefully the next few posts I get on this thread will be about progress...

Eric

 

[00gyrhed]

I am going to say something that a lot of people will disaggree with but they are wrong. They read too many magazines and do too much bench racing. Do not drink the Hot Rod, Mustang magazine Coolaid. This 393 or whatever you build is going to make nice impressive usauble torque even if you bolt on a set of crappy small valve heads, a stock 351 windsor cam, and stock cast iron manifolds. Yes that set up will hurt the top end but think about it before you put a lopey cam in. Even if you want a really fast street machine just how fast can you really drive a bronco with 35 inch tires safely? Buy a cam that has a realitively short duration, as high a lift as you can find and virtually no overlap. The intake valve really doesn't need to be any larger than 1.9 and the exhaust will live with 1.5 ish. Watch out for high compression ratios and RV (high lift no overlap) type cams. They are able to run higher compression ratios than you might expect due to the fact that there is very little scavenging and the residual exhaust gas dilutes the incoming fuel air charge. But they can be a real bitch to start, When you start it you have a fresh fuel air mixture with no residual exhaust gas and the resultant first firing will detonate severly and is hard on starters as well, but they do run like a stripped @$$ ape on crappy gas once they start running.

In 1984, when I was still young an wreckless) I built a chevy 350 with a 305 RV cam that the manufacturer said wouldn't let me rev the 350 past 3500 RPM, just because the peak HP was being made at 2500 RPM in the 305. Turns out it got flat at about 4500 RPM. This unexpected result is due to the fact that the 350 would draw in more fuel air mixture due the the larger displacement. I had 9:1 compression and experinced the hard starts, but no detonation once the engine was running. It was faster in a CJ5 than anything I every faced on the raod up until I reached like 65 MPH or so then it would start to flatten out. It was still able to pass at about 75 but I admit there really wasn't much left. Speed limit was 55 and I really never enjoyed driving the little CJ faster than 70 MPH. One blown out 33" tire at 70 MPH in one of those things and you know what I mean. Deal was it got there so fast I was one impressive offroad and street engine. I had to wire the quadajet secondaries to just barely open otherwise the damn thing would go from primaries to WOT in just a heart beat due to the fact that the 2500# Cj wasn't much of a load and then engine constantly made exceptional vacuum with that type cam.

If you keeep in mind that there is no reson to build an engine that makes top end HP where you will never use it you can build some very impressive torque monsters that will get you going in a hurry, white smoke all four tires, and so what that it hit peak HP at 60 MPH and fell off completely at 80. Problem is some cam manufacturers have no idea what the Real top RPM of the cam is, or where it really drops off. Once they dyno the peak they are basically done. They also may not know where a 351W cam will make peak HP in a 393.

If you want to go 100 in your bronco then ignore me completely.

 

[EricLar80]

I was beginning to wonder if anyone was reading this thread... ;D

All joking aside, thanks for the post.

Eric

 

[HGM]

In short, I'll 2nd 00..... I think he's absoloutely correct.. Think Harley vs sportbikes if you're a rider.. Tq is king in our applications.. High comp and displacement are the easiest way to get it, with the proper, low end cam..

 

[KyleQ]

I'm putting TFS 185's on a 427 because all I want for Christmas is TORQUE TORQUE TOQUE! I'm setting the rev limited around 5500RPM to make this thing last - put it in a gear, dump the clutch and hold on!